Comparing Brim (warrior) and Cirim (Mage)

[Zababa]

I can't code in C, but I want to help with Angband development. I have read Magnate's post that help is needed with fixing the mage spell list. In the respective ticket I saw that the average damage of the spells should be compared to e.g. a warrior throughout the game.

So I decided to alternate in playing a character of a warrior (Brim) and a mage (Cirim) and share my experience in playing them. I will try to update this thread after my every gaming session with these guys.

I am an advanced player of Angband (been playing with breaks for 4 years), though I never won. I think I know about 20% of the game. I tried many characters and played them successfully to their mid 30ies of character levels. I think I play carefully, I always have some means of instant emergency rescue prepared when I'm diving.

I don't savescum, but in running this comparison I think I may savescum now and then just because I'd like to try Cirim to engage in comparable fights as Brim even if it's too risky for him.

[Zababa]

1st level of Brim

I have entered the first dungeon level. Saw four jackals running against me, I could kill all of them with my Short Sword in a single hit before they could do anything to me. The last one of them bit me though, 1 HP damage. I was collecting some scrolls and potions when I encountered a small kobold. My first hit on him was a great hit, that sucker tried to flee in terror but died before I could hit him a second time. He did not even have a chance to land a single hit on me. A large brown snake was guarding two potions I wanted to collect. The snake was still asleep when I close enough to attack it. That was my toughest enemy so far. It took me three hits to kill it. It woke up after my first hit, tried to flee after my second, but I killed it before it could get away. With this I have collected enough XP to level up. Crawling through Angband was fun so far. I have 2.0 blows with my Short Sword with an average damage of 14.2 per round.

TL;DR 1 hit = 1 kill, practically no harm, quick and easy progress.

[Derakon]

I don't think that anyone's going to argue that mages and warriors should have parity, at the very least certainly not in the early game. Warriors come roaring out of the gate and are the strongest level 1 characters by far. What's more interesting IMO is how capable the mage is of killing things later on. In my experience even a strong mage in the mid and late game doesn't have the mana reserves to kill big targets without having to either rely on magic devices, chug mana potions, or retreat to rest. Or use melee/bows, of course.

The difficulty will be in reconciling the mage's weaker offense with its increased versatility: it's ranged, typically can hit multiple targets, and can hit past monsters that would completely block normal ranged combat.

[Zababa]

1st level of Cirim

I bought a cloak, some ?Phase Door, and a cloak, !CLW, !CSW. Let's what the dungeon is about. I learned the Magic Missile spell so I should be safe in the first level. I saw a giant yellow centipede, one shot of my MM and it died. I encountered another such thing soon thereafter, but one shot did not kill it. It was massively hurt though and ran away. My mana was empty, but I stabbed it to death with my knife. I was collecting some potions when I saw a Rock Lizard. Two shots of MM killed it. Out of mana again, taking a nap, I was disturbed by a giant yellow centipede. I did not want to experience how this four feet long creature could hurt me so I better ran from it until I got enough mana for another MM shot which killed it right away. I like my magic missiles. I think I can do more damage with them than with my dagger (1.0 blows, 2.6 avg. damage/round). A pity I have only enough mana for two shots. I tried it on a white worm mass. Due to lack of concentration, I only managed to shoot once, but it was enough to kill off the worms. Later, I ran into a gray mushroom patch. Clumsy me! It hurt me badly, 4 HP of my 10. I managed to step away from it, and when my confusion was gone, I killed it with a single shot. I love my magic missile. It killed everything I encountered later, too. Clear icky thing, 1 shot. A Jackal, another shot. But then I saw there are four more of these hungry jackals in the room -- and I had no more mana. I quickly ran out, shut the door and rested for a while. Then I ran in, two shots, two more kills, back out, rest behind closed doors, and into room to kill the remaining two, one shot each. Easy enough. That's how I've reached level 2.

TL;DR piece of cake, 1 magic missile = 1 kill, creatures did no harm, had to back off twice when fighting 5 jackals.

[Zababa]

The difficulty will be in reconciling the mage's weaker offense with its increased versatility: it's ranged, typically can hit multiple targets, and can hit past monsters that would completely block normal ranged combat.

I agree that a mage should pay for its versatility and ranged attacks. Warriors have troubles detecting stuff, disarming, searching, etc. so here they rely on staffs, rods and wands. Mages, on the other hand, would use staffs, rods and wands to compensate their weak attack and yet weaker defense I should say.

I know that this comparison may get more interesting in the mid and late game. But I have to get there somehow with these guys. And I'd prefer to see and compare them performing on their way to it.

[Zababa]

2nd level of Brim

Collecting more scrolls and potions, fighting bats, worm masses, centipedes, rock lizards, icky things, ants, floating eyes. Almost no harm taken, healed comfortably on the way. Found some secret doors, picked locks. Stayed at 50' all the time.

[Zababa]

2nd level of Cirim

I learned Detect monsters and Phase Door. Killed some rats, icky things, jackals, rock lizards, floating eyes, kobolds. Stayed at 50' all the time. The last fight was with a (OoD) black naga worth 30 XP. Four shots of magic missiles were almost enough to kill it. Yet it survived. I rested behind closed doors. Four shots, no luck, rested again. When I opened the doors the second time, the black naga stood right infront of me. I should not have attacked it that time. It got angry and crushed me really badly. I had 5 HP left of my 12. I learned that I should definitely prefer ranged attacks. Luckily I could read a Phase Door scroll and quaff a !CLW, yet still I could not kill it. Another rest behind closed doors, and another try. The naga recovered about half its hitpoints, I managed to kill it with 3 shots of my magic missile. That way I reached Level 3.

TL;DR easy time fighting the usual critters at 50', big boss fight with OoD black naga, need lucky dice rolls to kill it, but no big deal.

[myshkin]

I have 2.0 blows with my Short Sword with an average damage of 14.2 per round.

Why is Brim wielding a Short Sword? He probably should be using a lighter weapon to get more blows and greater average damage per round...look for a Main Gauche.

I might also have sacrificed some STR and CON to get your initial DEX to 18/10, which offers a significant boost in number of blows.

[Timo Pietilä]

Why is Brim wielding a Short Sword? He probably should be using a lighter weapon to get more blows and greater average damage per round...look for a Main Gauche.

I might also have sacrificed some STR and CON to get your initial DEX to 18/10, which offers a significant boost in number of blows.

I think effect of DEX is a lot more linear now than it was in old days, no more clear breakpoints, 18/100 doesn't allow sixth blow, you might get it earlier or later, depending of weapon weight, 18/200 DEX is still significant for blows for heavier weapons and so on.

[myshkin]

I think effect of DEX is a lot more linear now than it was in old days, no more clear breakpoints, 18/100 doesn't allow sixth blow, you might get it earlier or later, depending of weapon weight, 18/200 DEX is still significant for blows for heavier weapons and so on.

While fractional blows have made things better in that regard, there's still a decent-sized jump at 17 and again at 18/20 at the head of staging. In 3.2.0, which Zababa is playing, the biggest breakpoint is probably at 18/10. Still, the bigger issue is weapon weight, at least in the very early game.

[Zababa]

I might also have sacrificed some STR and CON to get your initial DEX to 18/10, which offers a significant boost in number of blows.

I did not know these details about the influence of the stat values on the number of blows. The way the bonus points were assigned to my stats by default felt just right, so I took it that way.

Of course I know that with growing STR and DEX you blows per round increase, but just did not know that two more points in DEX would give me a significant boost in number of blows. With fractional blows I expect the number of blows grow with every point in DEX or STR, e.g. with 17 it's 2.0, with 18 it's 2.15, with 18/10 it's 2.3 etc.

Now I see that fractional blows are not that fine-grained.

I'll try to look for a Main Gauche or any other weapon which would improve Brim's attack, thanks for the tip.

[Zababa]

3rd level of Brim

I tried to buy a better weapon in the town, but they had none. They had some enchanted ones, of course, but those were way too expensive. I had a look deeper into the dungeon (100'). I saw some new creatures. Yeeks. Easy to slay, they sometimes drop things. Then I encountered Fang. That beast could bite really fast and even gave me a graze. It hurt me for 11 HP, but I could slay it in my third turn. Got so much XP from Fang that I'm now level 4.

TL;DR killed a yeek and Fang (furious fight, no problems)

[Zababa]

3rd level of Cirim

I learned a new spell: Light area. My magic missile does 3d4 damage. I sold my dungeon loot. Among them was a Potion of Blindness (squelch). I bought some flasks of oil. I heard they can be thrown at enemies and they can go up in flames.

Back in the dungeon, I had some fun detecting monsters. I saw a scruffy looking hobbit at 50' I killed it with 2 shots. Then I went into a room with 6 Jackals. I killed 5 of them with magic missiles, had no mana for the 6th one, but a flask of oil did the job. I encountered another pack of jackals. I could kill most of them from far away with my missiles while they were asleep. Stealth is fun. They gave me enough XP to level up.

TL;DR crawling and fighting at 50', took no damage.

[Zababa]

4th level of Brim

I started to look more for unindentified items to sell them. Killed a novice mage. Leveled up mostly by lock-picking.

[Zababa]

4th level of Cirim

I descended to 100'. There were both Maggot's dogs in the room, I could have killed one of them, but two of them at the same time were just too dangerous. I had 6 of 17 HP left when I reached the stairs up to 50'. On my second trip to 100' I destroyed a white jelly and some cave spiders. I have reached level 5 and can learn 2 more spells.