How much more scumming?

[Magnate]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10451

This is the comp88 character which I never killed or finished in time. I'm thinking of trying Sauron with the 8-blow axe and the acid ring ... but I only have 506hp, which is not enough for a single manastorm. Nor do I have anything except !CCW and two !*heal* (which I'll need for M). It's getting a bit tedious pinging between 97 and 98 looking for speed, CON and healing. (I found one staff of healing all game, but it got burned.) My max perm speed is +19 but I'm usually wandering around at +17 because of bolts and swaps. To wear the acid ring that would drop to max +13, which is +23 hasted - barely enough.

Grateful for any tips on gathering the necessary gear ...

[Timo Pietilä]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10451

Sauron can cast Darkness Storm which does not have a damage cap. You do have a resist, but even resisted it can still do a lot of damage. (tried to look at the code how much but current vanilla code is a bit spaghetti code so that you can't anymore interprete it easily. Here is the relevant code (I think):

case SPELL(1,RSF1_BA_DARK):
		{
			disturb(1, 0);
			if (blind) msg_format("%^s mumbles powerfully.", m_name);
			else msg_format("%^s invokes a darkness storm.", m_name);
			breath(m_idx, GF_DARK,
			       BA_DARK_DMG(rlev, RANDOMISE));
			update_smart_learn(m_idx, DRS_RES_DARK);
			break;
		}

I have no idea how much damage that can do. All I remember from old code was that max damage for Sauron darkness storm is over 600 points and Sauron can also do manastorm which you can't resist. That means you don't have enough HP to take him (unless lucky and he doesn't cast manastorm before he dies).

You need to use RoCON as your second ring. Haste for fights. You need more speed for final fight.

[Magnate]

Sauron can cast Darkness Storm which does not have a damage cap. You do have a resist, but even resisted it can still do a lot of damage. (tried to look at the code how much but current vanilla code is a bit spaghetti code so that you can't anymore interprete it easily. Here is the relevant code (I think):

case SPELL(1,RSF1_BA_DARK):
		{
			disturb(1, 0);
			if (blind) msg_format("%^s mumbles powerfully.", m_name);
			else msg_format("%^s invokes a darkness storm.", m_name);
			breath(m_idx, GF_DARK,
			       BA_DARK_DMG(rlev, RANDOMISE));
			update_smart_learn(m_idx, DRS_RES_DARK);
			break;
		}

I have no idea how much damage that can do. All I remember from old code was that max damage for Sauron darkness storm is over 600 points and Sauron can also do manastorm which you can't resist. That means you don't have enough HP to take him (unless lucky and he doesn't cast manastorm before he dies).

You need to use RoCON as your second ring. Haste for fights. You need more speed for final fight.

All the damage macros are defined in src/monster/constants.h - BA_DARK_DMG is 10d10+5*rlev. So for Morgoth that maxes at 600, and for Sauron 595. I think the worst-case resistance is 1/7th, which means it could kill me, yes. The problem is not enough ring slots - I need two speed rings (having found three in total, all with +6 pval) and the acid ring for branding, and a con ring (or preferably two). I only have +7 speed without rings, which is nowhere near enough. I have another +3 on the artifact DSM, but that would deprive me of rblind, rnexus and rnether (not to mention +5 CON) so it not yet advisable.

It's a shame, as I'd be pretty sure of a sub-0.5M turn win if I could just find enough speed (and a staff of healing).

[Timo Pietilä]

All the damage macros are defined in src/monster/constants.h -

Apparently some things should be there are not there. For example double poison resist is commented out, but you can still have double poison resist.

EDIT:

#define RES_DARK_ADJ(dam, dam_aspect) (((dam) * 4) / (damcalc(1, 6, dam_aspect) + 6))

Means that max damage is damage *4 /7 not damage * 6 /7 like with nether. 4/7 of 550 is 314. You can survive single darkness storm.

What is "(dam_aspect)"?

[Magnate]

Apparently some things should be there are not there. For example double poison resist is commented out, but you can still have double poison resist.

EDIT:

#define RES_DARK_ADJ(dam, dam_aspect) (((dam) * 4) / (damcalc(1, 6, dam_aspect) + 6))

Means that max damage is damage *4 /7 not damage * 6 /7 like with nether. 4/7 of 550 is 314. You can survive single darkness storm.

What is "(dam_aspect)"?

It's a device for making the macro useful in four different ways:

int damcalc(int num, int sides, aspect dam_aspect)
{
        int val = 0;

        switch (dam_aspect)
        {
                case MAXIMISE:
                case EXTREMIFY:
                {
                        val = num * sides;
                        break;
                }
                case RANDOMISE:
                {
                        val = damroll(num, sides);
                        break;
                }
                case MINIMISE:
                {
                        val = num;
                        break;
                }
                case AVERAGE:
                {
                        val = num * (sides + 1) / 2;
                        break;
                }
        }

        return (val);
}

Good catch on the double poison resist - will have to look into that. I'm pretty sure double poison resist works fine, but I'm not sure how!

[fizzix]

Good catch on the double poison resist - will have to look into that. I'm pretty sure double poison resist works fine, but I'm not sure how!

Check out the comments here (page 5):

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3424&page=5

I was convinced that you couldn't double resist poison. I kind of think you shouldn't actually be able to also because the cap is so much lower *and* there're no side effects once you have single resist.

[Timo Pietilä]

It's a device for making the macro useful in four different ways:

int damcalc(int num, int sides, aspect dam_aspect)
{

                case RANDOMISE:
                {
                        val = damroll(num, sides);
                        break;
                }
 
        return (val);
}

Thanks about that small bit of information. I wondered what an earth is that RANDOMISE I see in many places. I see that this piece of the puzzle is in z-rand.c. Why is it there? What's the purpose of that file? Filename doesn't tell me anything. Or should I ask that in development-forum? This far to figure out simple damage calculation I need to know internals of three different files.

[miyazaki]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10451

This is the comp88 character which I never killed or finished in time. I'm thinking of trying Sauron with the 8-blow axe and the acid ring ... but I only have 506hp, which is not enough for a single manastorm. Nor do I have anything except !CCW and two !*heal* (which I'll need for M). It's getting a bit tedious pinging between 97 and 98 looking for speed, CON and healing. (I found one staff of healing all game, but it got burned.) My max perm speed is +19 but I'm usually wandering around at +17 because of bolts and swaps. To wear the acid ring that would drop to max +13, which is +23 hasted - barely enough.

Grateful for any tips on gathering the necessary gear ...

Is there a reason you are so hellbent on melee? You have bolts and arrows of acid...and you're a ranger. Even with a mediocre bow, you should be able to take a run at Sauron. That way you could use your staves of banishment and destruction.

Whether you want to get your HP above 550 is your call. ("Feelin' lucky, punk?") Sauron has a lot of choices of attacks. I don't recall ever seeing him manastorm in the seven or so time I have faced him. Playing chicken with the RNG isn't smart, but it is exciting. And if you want to finish in less than half-million turns, you have to take a few risks...

[Magnate]

Is there a reason you are so hellbent on melee? You have bolts and arrows of acid...and you're a ranger. Even with a mediocre bow, you should be able to take a run at Sauron. That way you could use your staves of banishment and destruction.

I haven't found a single bow better than x3 all game - quite ironic, since Nick chose the comp to see if anyone would find an overpowered x6 bow. By contrast, I do over 400 dam/turn with the acid ring and the 6d6 axe with +3 blows. Regardless of damage output, I find melee much much better for dealing with summoners, since in a corridor you tend to have to tel other the one you want to kill in order to get rid of the summons. Sauron casts 1-in-2, so the chances of him summoning at some point are pretty high. But you're right that I could gamble on the manastorm not happening (though melee would be better for that too, since he's more likely to cast if he's at range).

[Derakon]

I thought the Vanilla AI just chose between "(move towards player, or attack if adjacent) and (cast a spell)". So casting frequency doesn't increase at range, even if the monster is intelligent.

Couldn't you use your bow in melee range, too?

[LostTemplar]

You can dig ASC and shoot in melee range.

[miyazaki]

I haven't found a single bow better than x3 all game - quite ironic, since Nick chose the comp to see if anyone would find an overpowered x6 bow. By contrast, I do over 400 dam/turn with the acid ring and the 6d6 axe with +3 blows. Regardless of damage output, I find melee much much better for dealing with summoners, since in a corridor you tend to have to tel other the one you want to kill in order to get rid of the summons. Sauron casts 1-in-2, so the chances of him summoning at some point are pretty high. But you're right that I could gamble on the manastorm not happening (though melee would be better for that too, since he's more likely to cast if he's at range).

But even a x3 bow is going to give you three shots to his one move. You will be able to get all 24 arrows off to his four spells (in a perfect world). Destruct the area first and you can easily avoid his LOS and use your _banishment if he summons. You can't carry it if you decided to melee. Using ranged attacks gives you way more options.

At 400 dam/turn it is going to take 25 rounds to kill him. Even with a sweet randart weapon and branding ring, it doesn't make sense to melee. This is the whole problem with extra shots and multiplicative ammo. 99 out of 100 times, archery makes sense. (Thumbs up to nerfing archery!)

The biggest problem with archery is teleporation. It is easy to be teleported away or off the level and lose the arrows on the floor. (or does resist nexus prevent that? I could never figure that out.)

[Timo Pietilä]

The biggest problem with archery is teleporation. It is easy to be teleported away or off the level and lose the arrows on the floor. (or does resist nexus prevent that? I could never figure that out.)

Nexus resist prevents level-teleporting, but not any other kind of teleporting (except of course as nexus side-effect).

[Timo Pietilä]

I haven't found a single bow better than x3 all game - quite ironic, since Nick chose the comp to see if anyone would find an overpowered x6 bow.

Now that this comp is over I can tell you that there are no overpowered bows in this comp, quite opposite. Those randart bows game has don't get even close to standard artifact bows. Best bow you can find is big-damage Lothlorien with +2 to might. Do not try to find that artifact bow, it doesn't exists.

[Magnate]

Now that this comp is over I can tell you that there are no overpowered bows in this comp, quite opposite. Those randart bows game has don't get even close to standard artifact bows. Best bow you can find is big-damage Lothlorien with +2 to might. Do not try to find that artifact bow, it doesn't exists.

I had a suspicion that might be the case - so I've been examining every bow looking for one with +2 might.

If I'd been Nick I'd have checked the spoiler first to make sure there was a x6 longbow in the artifact set!