Thog, the Brainless

[Wisp]

So, I lost a character farther into the pits than ever before... 1950'.

...and was too stupid to save the char dump.

Anyways, I ran into Kevlax, The Multi-Headed Dragon. I had the brilliant idea to try to shoot arrows at him. He breathed confusion, which I had no resistance to, and I died... very very quickly. >.< To make things worse, I had wands of teleport other, a staff of teleportation, scrolls of teleport (level and otherwise), AND a rod of recall. I was just unaware he could breathe confusion, and that it would do over half my health. Anyways, my point here is that I'm pretty confident in my ability to tackle the pits at <1000'. The reason I was on 1950 was because I had heard I should get rPoison before going further, and I couldn't find any. What should I look for to give my rPois? Any tips for tackling 1500' and up?

Thanks much...
Looking forward to killing morgoth... Eventually.

[Derakon]

Kavlax is dangerous. Not only confusion, but also all four base elements, sound, shards, nexus, and gravity. Not only that, but he's fast and he has no other spells, so basically every other turn (assuming you're at base speed) he'll breathe something at you for up to 433 damage unresisted (gravity has a lower damage cap though, but it stuns and slows you). Don't fight him when he's in-depth; it's just asking for death.

Don't feel that you need to have certain resists by a certain point. The various breakpoints in TANG were conventional wisdom back when that document was written, but the conventional wisdom has changed in the meantime. Instead of resistances by certain depths, you want resistances before tackling certain monsters. But monsters can be avoided if you don't have the requisite resistances, so you can dive without protection as long as you're careful. The main poison breathers are Ancient Multi-Hued Dragons (native to 2150') and Dracolisks (native to 2750'). Drolems (native to 2200') breathe poison even harder than AMHDs do and are nonliving (so telepathy doesn't detect them); however, they're also incredibly rare; generally speaking I don't see more than two or three per game. If you just stay aware of what's around you and what they can do, you can generally avoid any nasty poison breathers and thus can dive safely.

[Timo Pietilä]

long as you're careful. The main poison breathers are Ancient Multi-Hued Dragons (native to 2150') and Dracolisks (native to 2750'). Drolems (native to 2200') breathe poison even harder than AMHDs do and are nonliving (so telepathy doesn't detect them)

Drolems are "mindless" so telepathy doesn't detect them. Telepathy definitely detects most undeads. Dracolisks don't breath poison. They breathe nexus and fire. So: main threats are AMHD and Drolems, though Drolems are rare. Then deeper there are several uniques: Shelob is the first (2750') and after that many others, and also non-uniques: Bile Demon (3050'), Great Swap Wyrm (3150'), Pit Fiend (3850') and Great Wyrm of Many Colors (3950'), and some lesser fast breathers like Greater Basilisk and Winged Horror.

[Derakon]

Hunh, thanks for the corrections. Could've sworn that dracolisks could breathe poison, but you're right. Whoops. Maybe I was thinking of the greater basilisks...

Anyway, the short of it is, know what a monster can do before you engage it in combat. If this means reading monster spoilers, I for one don't have a problem with it. Or you can carry a Rod of Probing around with you.

[Pete Mack]

Right.
There's no significant difference between 1000' and 1500'.
Starting from 1650' (Gravity Hounds), there are monsters that will kill you if you engage them. Kavlax is the next.
After dl 2000', there are too many to name.

[Derakon]

I once lost a character to gravity hounds that were 300' out of depth. Walked into a dark room => breathed gravity => bounced around => dead. He was a warrior, so no monster detection for me.

[Timo Pietilä]

Right.
There's no significant difference between 1000' and 1500'.
Starting from 1650' (Gravity Hounds), there are monsters that will kill you if you engage them. Kavlax is the next.
After dl 2000', there are too many to name.

Way worse than Gravity hounds are Time Hounds. Those are relatively deep: native to 2550', but they are deadly to most chars even then. Combination of +20 speed, group attack and unresisted time damage + reduce stats side-effect make them #1 killer for my chars. If you don't have your CON to 18+ internal (before race, class and equipment bonuses) just one of them is very very deadly. Dealing with three or four is almost certain death unless you are near endgame ready, and they appear in groups of 20+. Teleporting in pack of those has nearly always been fatal to me. Pack of those can reduce 1000+ HP to zero easily in one round.

There are no other monster that I don't fight in the game. I even kill Reavers and Horned Reapers for fun, but Time hounds... Single maybe, but only if I have managed to get rid of rest of the pack without putting myself in LoS of them and I have a mean to restore my stats and I'm moving at speeds >20+. And even then it is no fun, unlike the satisfaction of killing high-level demon or undead.

Luckily "pack intelligence" is for character that has detection ability and ball-spells "pack stupidity". Blindly attacking time hounds would be much much worse than time hounds that try to ambush you.

When you detect those avoid at all costs. *destruct*, run away, whatever. Do not use teleportation in deeper levels (2500+) unless it is the last choice. Use teleport other, level, *destruct*, banishments before teleport.

[fizzix]

Way worse than Gravity hounds are Time Hounds.

I agree with most of this, except gravity hounds can be worse than time hounds. The first breath can bring you into the room where the rest of the hounds can get at you. You have to be very careful with gravity hounds. You can't even let that first breath hit you.

Time hounds really need to be weakened a little. Get rid of the 'reduce all stats' option completely. Then, each breath should only reduce by the same amount as a normal reduction, although it can still bypass sustains (maybe give a 50% saving through if you have the sustain). Lastly, drop their damage output significantly. The side effects are brutal enough, they shouldn't be deadly also.

(I realize that if you're above 18, time hounds reduce by less than sustains. The problem is if you're not above 18, then they're ridiculous)

I hate time hounds, not because I've lost characters to them (I haven't yet) but because they're not worth dealing with ever, so they don't really add anything interesting to the game.

[Pete Mack]

That's the whole point of time hounds: they aren't worth fighting, ever. So work to avoid them.

[Derakon]

I hate time hounds, not because I've lost characters to them (I haven't yet) but because they're not worth dealing with ever, so they don't really add anything interesting to the game.

Some monsters exist to get in the way. Time Hounds are one of the more notable examples, but the Beholder set also count -- nasty spells, annoying melee, pitiful experience (last I checked, an individual Nether Hound is worth more experience than a bog-standard Beholder), and no drop.

[fizzix]

Some monsters exist to get in the way. Time Hounds are one of the more notable examples, but the Beholder set also count -- nasty spells, annoying melee, pitiful experience (last I checked, an individual Nether Hound is worth more experience than a bog-standard Beholder), and no drop.

I understand that purpose completely. In which case, I'd rather have them be incredibly annoying like an undead beholder or a colbran. I'd like their particular annoyance to be stat drain, not inventory destruction (like e's and g's). I just don't want them to also be incredibly deadly, or their annoyance to be so cumbersome that *destruction* is the preferred method at all points in the game.

I'm not saying remove them completely. I'm saying tone it down so that a character that's ready to take on Morgoth is capable of dealing with them.

[Wisp]

Hmm okay. My warrior had stumbled upon Thranduil, so I had some detection beforehand. I was just unaware of the immediate danger I was in; I was unaccustomed to things that could kill me very, very quickly, although I was already in the habit of staying far, far away from gravity hounds. I didn't realize I should start packing a rod of probing; I'd come across a few, but left them behind. I found a scroll of acquirement, and it gave me the Glaive of Pain, but I opted for the +2 extra attacks scimitar. So, my survival kit should involve wands of TO, and Destruction, but in what form?

Also, what sort of weapon should I be hunting as I head into the mid-game?

[Derakon]

The Glaive of Pain is an excellent weapon, especially if you can find a Ring of Acid (many high-level monsters do not resist acid attacks, and Rings of <insert element> brand your melee attacks).

Destruction -- carry a staff with you, since they can be recharged. Use it well before the last possible moment, since it has a failure rate. Save your scrolls of Destruction for the endgame.

Teleport Other -- carry wands until you can find rods, then use those.

[Pete Mack]

Carry wands even after you find rods of tele other. They hold a lot more charges, and are more reliable, especially for warriors.

[Timo Pietilä]

The Glaive of Pain is an excellent weapon, especially if you can find a Ring of Acid (many high-level monsters do not resist acid attacks,

Make that "nearly all monsters are vulnerable to acid." High and low levels. Notable exceptions are angels, beholders, elementals, most mobile jellies and things that breathe acid.

Glaive of Pain is incredible weapon even without branding. My current char has found...I don't know...10-15 high-dice, high bonus weapon with and without extra blows and when I have done the calcs Pain has always been the most damaging one.

Unless you need something else than damage from the weapon Pain is almost always the best bet. There are few even more damaging weapons, but those are not artifacts. Something like Scythe of Slicing of Fury +2 can be more deadly.

Pain is the angelkiller. Makes mopping angel explosions fun once you have killed the unique ones.