Early assessment on a change...

[Tiburon Silverflame]

We've talked about the issues with stat-gain, so I changed my alchemist's shop to have the stat gainers instead of the stat restorers, in V3.1.2v2 release code. Built a high elf mage, started back in.

First thing to notice: the stat-gain potions' *price* remains high. The base price is 8000; they were running almost 9000 even with the big Char boost that high elf gets. For most it'd be even higher. So, right away this becomes a limiting factor; you're not going to gather up that much cash for a while. The first 10 dungeon levels should pretty much play the same as they always do, no matter how you like to play them.

Starting around DL 12, you start getting enough cash for what you bring back, that you can start buying the gainers. Maybe 1, on the first trip; you're not seeing that many ego weapons at that point. By DL 18, a lucky trip might let you get 2 potions, from a reasonably extended trip. But that's probably all, unless you get somewhat lucky with ego weapons...and I was using the one Westernesse weapon I'd found. (I'd also gotten lucky and found Cammithrin, but damn if I'm gonna sell those. )

I had a very YASD on 20, but my sense is, in this approach you should be able to drop down reasonably smoothly, with the limitation becoming resists. The fact is, you can't buy them *quickly*...and you're limited by the need for so many of them. At one point, I had more mana than hit points...but I still had to watch out for energy/fire hound packs because 120 hit points can be gone rather quickly. And fine, I can use Spear of Light against a bunch of black orcs, but it still takes 3 to do the job...which is still a pretty good chunk of mana to use. Levels 19 and 20 were *less* of a hassle than normal, but they still weren't easy.

[fizzix]

As I said in another thread, I tried a similar thing a couple years ago with including stat-gain potions in the shop. Except, I did it differently, including !Aug, instead of the individual stat gain potions. Those sold for around 60k so you couldn't really afford one until you hit stat gain depth anyway. What I found was that, if you choose, you can run a ego item finding business. Instead of scrounging dlevel 30-35 for stat gain, you scrounge for ego weapons. 6-12 ego weapons will get you a potion. If you choose to hang around those levels to do stat gain then you can accomplish it with much less grinding. I don't know how the game would play with diving though, I was not good enough back then to try that.

[Derakon]

I like the idea of selling Augmentation better than that of selling the stat-gain potions, mostly because stat-gain potions sold by the non-Black Market shops are way too cheap. Think about it: if they're worth buying from the Black Market at 27k a pop, then they're definitely worth buying from the standard shops at 9k.

I can't help but think that making stat gain reliably available in the shops is only going to reinforce the "shopping game" though, which doesn't seem like such a great idea. There's got to be a better way to smooth out stat-gain.

[Zikke]

I actually like where stat gain is in V right now.

Before, it was generally assumed you would dive down to dlvl 30 and farm stat potions until you were maxed and then dive down near the bottom. That was prescribed, boring, and pretty artificial-feeling.

Now, the potions aren't common enough to stay at 30 until you're maxed out. Now you just keep going deeper as you feel more powerful and by the time you're at 98 and collecting consumables for the last few fights, you get maxed out from !Aug and stat potions. It feels much more organic of a process.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

It would be rather easy to switch to Aug; I can do that and see what I think. It has another advantage: you can't focus-buy. Mage? Never touch a !Wis until anything important's at 18/60 before race/class adjustments. Priest feels the same way about !Int.

We spend the money to buy from the BM because we're getting desperate for them by DL 20-22 or so. I know I want more damage and more hit points. Scumming for !'s means more exhaustively working a level. 1 or 2 Str or Dex boosters might mean a 2nd attack, or maybe a 3rd...big help there. Int or Wis, we go from 2 mana per level to maybe 3 per, and we get lower failure rates on the spells that do enough damage to be worthwhile.

And, when you get down to it, what else do we have to spend money on, at this point? Fine, spend a bit here and there on CCWs and WoRs and a few other minor things...nothing we routinely like, tho, costs anything. The rare, deep stuff like =Spd, !(Exp, *Enlight*, *Aug*, Life), ?(Acq, *Acq*) don't show up often enough to be a serious factor, and are usually so *outrageously* expensive that by the time we can consider their purchase, 25K for a !Int is nothing.

As for reinforcing the shopping game...what's the point of having the stores in the first place? But, making !Aug's available at the alchemist, would cut down on the point of "well I have the money but they don't have the one I want". That wouldn't be a bad thing.

[fizzix]

I actually like where stat gain is in V right now.

Before, it was generally assumed you would dive down to dlvl 30 and farm stat potions until you were maxed and then dive down near the bottom. That was prescribed, boring, and pretty artificial-feeling.

Now, the potions aren't common enough to stay at 30 until you're maxed out. Now you just keep going deeper as you feel more powerful and by the time you're at 98 and collecting consumables for the last few fights, you get maxed out from !Aug and stat potions. It feels much more organic of a process.

I disagree, I don't like where it is right now. I spend way too much of the game (well, pretty much all of it) looking for stat gain. My most recent character just killed Sauron and I still clear out pits hoping for !Dex. That's broken.

However, I also don't think selling it in stores is the way to go. Having tried it, I think it makes things way too easy. It's not my preferred approach.

For the record, I do not like the following aspects of stat gain:

1: stats are unbalanced (specifically INT/WIS and CON) to give huge gains near max and almost useless gains lower. Going from con 18/00 to 18/50 is pretty useless. Going from 18/150 to 18/200 is huge. This means that you often need a *lot* of stat gain potions to get those benefits you need. Especially Con. Not enough Con and you *cannot* beat Morgoth.
2: clearing mobs of weak monster is a good method for stat gain.
3: Drop_good monsters (all uniques with drops, minus the lernean hydra) cannot drop stat potions. Just add stat potions to drop_good already. If each unique drop had a 5% chance of being a stat_gain potion, almost all the problems I have with stat gain would be solved.

[Sirridan]

For the record, I do not like the following aspects of stat gain:

1: stats are unbalanced (specifically INT/WIS and CON) to give huge gains near max and almost useless gains lower. Going from con 18/00 to 18/50 is pretty useless. Going from 18/150 to 18/200 is huge. This means that you often need a *lot* of stat gain potions to get those benefits you need. Especially Con. Not enough Con and you *cannot* beat Morgoth.
2: clearing mobs of weak monster is a good method for stat gain.
3: Drop_good monsters (all uniques with drops, minus the lernean hydra) cannot drop stat potions. Just add stat potions to drop_good already. If each unique drop had a 5% chance of being a stat_gain potion, almost all the problems I have with stat gain would be solved.

Or possibly make stat-gain potions give a higher boost? Except for maybe !aug. I know I pretty much always start with con at 17 base so I can hit 18 fast, and get the quick jump from 18 to 18/30~ with one potion (how does that work anyway?)

But the root problem is the same, looking for potions sucks and it can stall an otherwise good game out, especially if !con decides to never drop. If that happens I'm either loaded with +con gear and losing some killing power, or my hp pool is too low to be where I'd like to depth-wise (I like surviving a single-resisted base element breath when great wyrms start showing up)

[Zikke]

My point earlier was that in the quest for finding a good end-game kit and a decent amount of consumables, you should find enough potions in vaults and from wyrms to be well maxed by the time you are done gearing up. At least it has been that way for me in all of the about 12 games I have played to Morgoth since 3.0 came out. It's refreshing not needing to stop for stat gain any more.

[fizzix]

My point earlier was that in the quest for finding a good end-game kit and a decent amount of consumables, you should find enough potions in vaults and from wyrms to be well maxed by the time you are done gearing up. At least it has been that way for me in all of the about 12 games I have played to Morgoth since 3.0 came out. It's refreshing not needing to stop for stat gain any more.

I have not had the same experience...

[Derakon]

What if we reduced the number of types of stat gain potions? So you'd find potions that increase STR and CON, or INT and WIS, or DEX and stealth (assuming stealth is going to replace CHA, as I heard earlier). This would basically eliminate useless stat gain potions from the game (except for warriors who don't need INT at all and WIS only for the saving throw), and for instances where you need both stats the potion provides, you'd only need to find half as many potions.

[miyazaki]

I disagree, I don't like where it is right now. I spend way too much of the game (well, pretty much all of it) looking for stat gain. My most recent character just killed Sauron and I still clear out pits hoping for !Dex. That's broken.

I just looked at your character dump (nice dagger, BTW). I think that you are an elite player--ironman win, going for a sub-500k win. You can deal with the adversity of a low dex. I'm quite confident you could take on M without more dexterity.

It highlights the fact that Angband players have a huge range of skill levels and the game needs to remain difficult across all player skill levels. The infrequency of stat potions is a good way of organically increasing the difficulty level for skilled players looking for low turncount wins.

The ladder is full of winning characters who don't have their stats maxed out. It is a natural progression: once you have gotten your first win, you start taking more chances, start being more comfortable with resistance gaps in your kit and stats lower than you would like.

I am sympathetic to your current character, but I think that you should see this low dex as a individual challenge rather than a global problem. That said, I don't disagree with this:

1: stats are unbalanced (specifically INT/WIS and CON) to give huge gains near max and almost useless gains lower. Going from con 18/00 to 18/50 is pretty useless. Going from 18/150 to 18/200 is huge. This means that you often need a *lot* of stat gain potions to get those benefits you need. Especially Con. Not enough Con and you *cannot* beat Morgoth.
2: clearing mobs of weak monster is a good method for stat gain.
3: Drop_good monsters (all uniques with drops, minus the lernean hydra) cannot drop stat potions. Just add stat potions to drop_good already. If each unique drop had a 5% chance of being a stat_gain potion, almost all the problems I have with stat gain would be solved.

[fizzix]

I just looked at your character dump (nice dagger, BTW). I think that you are an elite player--ironman win, going for a sub-500k win. You can deal with the adversity of a low dex. I'm quite confident you could take on M without more dexterity.

It highlights the fact that Angband players have a huge range of skill levels and the game needs to remain difficult across all player skill levels. The infrequency of stat potions is a good way of organically increasing the difficulty level for skilled players looking for low turncount wins.

The ladder is full of winning characters who don't have their stats maxed out. It is a natural progression: once you have gotten your first win, you start taking more chances, start being more comfortable with resistance gaps in your kit and stats lower than you would like.

I am sympathetic to your current character, but I think that you should see this low dex as a individual challenge rather than a global problem. That said, I don't disagree with this:

I guess, I can agree with most of your comments, excepting the elite player. There's still enough of the game that I haven't mastered, and may never.

I guess my problems don't really relate to the rarity of stat potions, but rather how they're acquired. I guess that's why I also don't like selling them as a solution. I'd really like to see stat-gain as a possible reward for killing difficult monsters.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

To respond to Derakon's point: fewer stat gainers wouldn't help that much, because we just don't find that many in the first place. In fact, it might hurt, as now there would be overall fewer to be dropped.

The fact that you get a boost to 2 stats at one time, would certainly help. However, were I going to do paired, I'd use different combinations...but thinking about it, *on the assumption that Stealth replaces Char*...how about 5 potions?

--Dex/Stealth...pretty much universal appeal, across all classes anyway.

--then 1 for each physical stat/mental stat combo: Str/Int, Str/Wis, Con/Int, Con/Wis. What I'm aiming for is, none of these is of low value to any class. A priest would still like the Str/Int combo, for example. And, at least 1 should be of very high value to every class, perhaps *except* fighters...and they're equally happy with all of them.

It wouldn't be horrible for the Dex booster to give +1 Char, or perhaps it should give +2 Dex, and leave the Char potion alone for now...?

Another option which hasn't been mentioned, is letting things alone while consumables generation is reviewed. I've seen, and agree with, comments to the effect that potion/scroll drops are down, relative to wearable equipment. It may well be that if there's just more consumables produced, the issue might no longer even arise.

[Zikke]

The lowering of stat potion drops was directly related to Tak's crusade against TMJ, which was mostly very successful. Perhaps the solution to stat potions (if there is actually need for a solution) might be based on drop rates.

[Atarlost]

I think consumable drops need to be separated from equipment drops so that they can be dealt with independently. There was never really a TMJ problem with consumables. You can always just become more profligate if you're drowning in heroism potions or other low level consumables. Any solution should have been designed to preserve the consumables distribution.

Suppose monster X used to drop 1d3 items, and now drops 1. What it should do is drop 1 equippable and 1d2 or 1d3-1 consumables.

One way to do it without changing file parsing or needing new flags is to limit all non-drop_good monsters to only ever drop one equippable, and the rest must be consumables, then go back to the old drop quantities for everything without drop_good.