Tweaking Character Creation Process

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Mostly these thoughts about tweaks in the character generation process are for Nick to consider, as they don't involve game play changes, but would require some coding tweaks.

1. Location of Point-Based Stats: The starting stats for "point-based" character generation could (should?) be moved into the race and class files. This would allow for them to be modified by users creating new races and classes.

2. Order of Operations: The "standard roller" method could be made more relevant and provide another source of variety if the order of character creation were changed. My thinking is that: Race should be chosen first (@ is born); standard-rolling of stats occurs (@ is born with or develops natural talents); class is chosen (@ considers their genetic gifts and natural talents to select a career). I guess, if the point-based method were chosen, one could provide for the stat plus/minus at the end.

3. Location of User Interface Options: Much like keymaps, autoinscriptions, and subwindow setups, the user interface options could (should?) be recorded in the @ pref file (I would also add the base-delay factor, hitpoint warning, and movement delay to that, as well). This would allow one to simply load their standard pref-file to set the interface options rather than having to reset the interface options every time they create a new character.

Nick, or anyone else for that matter, what do you think?

[Derakon]

I don't really have an opinion on your other two suggestions, but I feel strongly about this one:

2. Order of Operations: The "standard roller" method could be made more relevant and provide another source of variety if the order of character creation were changed. My thinking is that: Race should be chosen first (@ is born); standard-rolling of stats occurs (@ is born with or develops natural talents); class is chosen (@ considers their genetic gifts and natural talents to select a career). I guess, if the point-based method were chosen, one could provide for the stat plus/minus at the end.

When I play Angband, the first decision I make is what class I want to play. Class is the primary determinant of how the game plays, and race is chosen in reaction to class. If I want to play a rogue, do I want to play a super-stealthy rogue (hobbit/kobold), a silly rogue (half-troll/dwarf), or a weak one (something else)? The order of picking should be class -> race -> stats -> options.

[Estie]

I don't really have an opinion on your other two suggestions, but I feel strongly about this one:



When I play Angband, the first decision I make is what class I want to play. Class is the primary determinant of how the game plays, and race is chosen in reaction to class. If I want to play a rogue, do I want to play a super-stealthy rogue (hobbit/kobold), a silly rogue (half-troll/dwarf), or a weak one (something else)? The order of picking should be class -> race -> stats -> options.

Half troll is not silly!

[Derakon]

Half troll is not silly!

Okay, one that's playing against type. Half-troll anything is pretty strong; even the mages are better than you'd think they'd be. Innate regen and massive physical stats can paper over a lot of flaws.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I don't really have an opinion on your other two suggestions, but I feel strongly about this one:



When I play Angband, the first decision I make is what class I want to play. Class is the primary determinant of how the game plays, and race is chosen in reaction to class. If I want to play a rogue, do I want to play a super-stealthy rogue (hobbit/kobold), a silly rogue (half-troll/dwarf), or a weak one (something else)? The order of picking should be class -> race -> stats -> options.

You can still decide what class you want to play, regardless of the order, but by changing the order of operations it allows one to make the choice of class a more random element for the standard roller, much like randarts providing variety, the standard roller could provide variety.

[debo]

Half troll is not silly!

I think Derakon's comment was half-trolling.

[krazyhades]

When I play Angband, the first decision I make is what class I want to play. Class is the primary determinant of how the game plays, and race is chosen in reaction to class.

I strongly agree with this. Every time I play a *band I end up temporarily choosing a random race just so I can think on the class screen for a while, then go back and choose a fitting race.

edit: oh and debo elf ind my revenge orc over my ears for that bad pun gnome an should have to hear, even if this sentence is only halfling uistically valid.

[Derakon]

You can still decide what class you want to play, regardless of the order, but by changing the order of operations it allows one to make the choice of class a more random element for the standard roller, much like randarts providing variety, the standard roller could provide variety.

The thing is that I don't feel like most players want to have their class options dictated to them by an RNG allocating stats. They'll sit down thinking "I want to play a mage" and then get annoyed when the game hands them a character with poor INT.

I'm not saying there aren't players who want to be handed a random, probably-"suboptimal" character and who then must make the best of what they have. But I strongly suspect said players are in the minority. Most novice players are going to want the "best" character they can get to help them beat a hard game; most veteran players are going to want difficulty modifiers that last past the midgame (when stat-gain renders your birth stats largely irrelevant).

Maybe what you should really be asking for is a game mode where you get a random race and class and then are forced to take the first block of stats the game generates for you.

Put another way: who actually still uses the standard roller?

[Nick]

1. Point-based stat allocations currently react to the race/class stats and the class, rather than being specified, so (appealing as it is) I don't think it really works
2. I think deciding to play a given class is probably the most common way to approach a game of Angband. I can see changing the standard roller to act like this maybe
3. This is usually handled by just starting from your previous savefile - is there any reason not to do that? Doing this would certainly take some work, but maybe it's the correct thing to do, I need to think further. Any opinions?

[Pete Mack]

Changing the order would be almost no work at all. I *think* it's just reordering items in an array.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Put another way: who actually still uses the standard roller?

I agree, that usually I think of what class, then race, that I want to play (even though the selection process is actually the reverse), then use point-based allocation. Standard roller in that situation is crazy, because you have already chosen the race/class combo and could end up with devastating stats for the mix. BUT, what I'm arguing for is to make standard roller relevant again. Like a player that no longer finds standarts satisfying and so opts for the challenge of randarts, if it worked as I'm proposing for the standard roller, choosing the class could become an element of the fun.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

• Point-based stat allocations currently react to the race/class stats and the class, rather than being specified, so (appealing as it is) I don't think it really works

Ah, I understand.

• I think deciding to play a given class is probably the most common way to approach a game of Angband. I can see changing the standard roller to act like this maybe

I'm still arguing for it for the standard roller as a way to add variety to the game, much as randarts and ironman add variety, once one is tired of the regular gameplay.

• This is usually handled by just starting from your previous savefile - is there any reason not to do that? Doing this would certainly take some work, but maybe it's the correct thing to do, I need to think further. Any opinions?

I use a standard .prf file with all my inscriptions, keymaps, and subwindows set up so that no matter what race/class I play, it is all loaded quickly without me having to reenter all of those things. Restarting from a savefile really doesn't get you there except for one particular race/class combo. I'm just thinking it would be nice not to have to reenter the user options every time as well.

[Nick]

I use a standard .prf file with all my inscriptions, keymaps, and subwindows set up so that no matter what race/class I play, it is all loaded quickly without me having to reenter all of those things. Restarting from a savefile really doesn't get you there except for one particular race/class combo. I'm just thinking it would be nice not to have to reenter the user options every time as well.

My point is that the savefile provides your user-interface and other options, and then you load your standard .prf file for the inscriptions etc. I can't see a more efficient way of doing this, or a reason not to - what am I missing?

[gameplay appreciator]

Ought to consider removing manual point allocation. It gets the new player way too far into arcane game mechanics if they want to make a good choice.

[Pete Mack]

Not so arcane as all that. It's described right up front in the 'character creation' help page.

Ought to consider removing manual point allocation. It gets the new player way too far into arcane game mechanics if they want to make a good choice.