Any tips for a newbie?

[robbiodobbio]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=19778

[robbiodobbio]

Half-Troll Warrior Ironman Update

Ticking along quite nicely in the DL20s, up to CL25 got Forsagil so doing a fair bit of damage, but equipment management is a real ball-ache, what to keep? what to chuck? There's a lot to be said for casters having 1 spellbook that covers detections, light, phase door etc.

What do I really need at this level? Staves of light? Staves of detect? Curing? Stone to mud for cracking vaults?

[Estie]

The discussion has become a bit theoretical I think. From my own games, I usually end up stashing the first !*heal* I find, simply because I tend to find them while still at low maximum health (maybe around 400), so a !*heal* doesnt do more than a !heal. By the time I have enough health for !*heal* to be worthwhile, I usually have a stack at home, but it still competes with other safety measures for inventory space, and I might end up not carrying any down at recall. For example, I might prefer a stack of !csw in addition zo !ccw, if the latter arent plentifull. While they dont fill up health completely, they are excellent at curing ailments multiple times and if I am in a situation where I want a !*heal*, I still have other options like activating teleport or reading *destruction*.

However, if I , say, run out of normal !heals and have !*heals* at home, I most certainly take some down with me.

[Egavactip]

As I said in my original post on the matter, I will use a healing potion that I have found if I need it to survive or if I see a unique or something juicy I can take out. So much of the time I am in the dungeon, once healing potions start appearing regularly, I am likely to have one or more on me, even before the end game, when I carry around surplus.

[Pete Mack]

Egavactip--
You aren't responding to the real point here: Keep the first few healing pots in your pack ad a matter of use or lose (in case you run into a dangerous situation.) Everything you just said emphasizes this: If you start stashing early, you end up with more than you could possibly use vs M. I don't start stashing til I've got 4 or 5.

[Egavactip]

To each his own. By the endgame, I typically have bunches of healing to carry around with anyway, since the stash is full, not to mention the occasional staff or two. Plus the usual rods of healing you accumulate in the endgame (though I don't think I've ever had a character get more than 8 or 9 rods of healing). And often one or more artifact healing abilities, too, not to mention the 40 CCW I will have (and the ability to phase door away and heal up with them, in many situations). My last win, posted a day or two ago, had an endgame character with 2 rods of healing (a bit low), 1 quick artifact *healing*, as well as the usual short stack of healing. Unless he was running into multiple big-ass uniques in a row, he was not exactly hurting for medicine.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

+1 to what Derakon has said.

[Derakon]

Of course, I am assuming I get to lvls 99 & 100 because otherwise, what is the point? I also have zero desire to spend the endgame just marking time while grubbing for consumables. By that time, I am out of patience and want to get on with it.

You miss my point. The game is more than just the last fight. In order to win, you have to survive to reach the last fight, and that means being prepared for all the fights between right now and that last fight. "Endgame consumables" are useful for those fights too. If you got killed by Smaug because you were too proud to bring a potion of Healing with you, then it hardly matters how many you had stocked in the home for Morgoth, does it?

If I recall down into a room full of insurmountable nasties I will immediately leave.

This assumes that you have the ability to immediately leave. Ideally of course you'll be carrying scrolls of Teleport Level with you. But you may find yourself confused, blinded, or hallucinating. It's wise to have more than one panic button on-hand.

I don't see the point in carrying stuff around that is better for the endgame than the early or mid-game and yet which is subjected to great risk of destruction in the early and mid-game. Staffs of speed, sure. You know they are likely to be blown out of your hands very quickly but they are useless in the end game. Potions of *Healing*? Hell no.

Early game? Probably not. If I find a Potion of Healing really early, I'll stash it at home, because Cure Critical Wounds can do basically everything it can with my current HP pool. They're worth carrying once you get to around 250 HP or so, though. *Healing* likewise becomes worth carrying when you have higher HP, just in case.

I don't grind for consumables. I can't remember the last time I got held up at the bottom of the dungeon for any reason other than simply not having a good enough melee weapon (defined as at least 350 damage/round vs. Morgoth, which is a pretty low bar) for a melee-oriented character. And I do this with reasonably speedy play (though I'm not consciously trying to optimize for turn count), usually with forced-descent turned on, while carrying scrolls of Destruction and Potions of Healing/*Healing* in my inventory. There's been the occasional somewhat tense fight where my consumables got low, but usually I find I have plenty of pretty much everything except for Scrolls of Destruction/Mass Banishment.

So basically, I'm looking at you somewhat slack-jawed when you say that you save up 40 potions of Healing in the house before you consider carrying any in your pack, because the most potions of Healing I've ever had, in-house and in-pack combined, is probably around 20, and in most games I bring in maybe 10 to the final fight. Far be it from me to tell you you're playing the game wrong, but I think you're being excessively miserly.

EDIT: note that I do stash some of my consumables in the home. I only bring enough with me on trips to cover emergencies, really. I don't contest the utility of protecting your consumables from elemental damage, but you shouldn't let a desire to protect your possessions override the value those possessions can provide in the immediate moment.

[Pete Mack]

Because if you find yourself in trouble prior to the final fights any !heal left at home is worthless. You have to be really unlucky not to find enough to be able to lose a few. And really, there is no need to fight any big cold breathers you can't kill fast. Further any left over after killing M beyond a handful for safety are wasted just as much as if you had lost them to cold damage. (Actually wasted even more, since they served a purpose just being available for emergencies so you could afford a risk when cracking a vault, etc.)

You can always get more healing potions so long as you are not dead. A single Maia or Dragon, or even Undead pit should catch you up.

[Egavactip]

You're stashing too much for a hypothetical endgame on the assumption that you make it that far. You should be carrying at least some of most "endgame consumables" for the rare situation in which you find yourself needing it right now, because otherwise you won't survive to make it to the point that you're saving the items for.

Of course, I am assuming I get to lvls 99 & 100 because otherwise, what is the point? I also have zero desire to spend the endgame just marking time while grubbing for consumables. By that time, I am out of patience and want to get on with it.

What happens if you recall down with an empty stock of big heals and are immediately surrounded by nasties? When you're looking at that tombstone at the end of a game, compare the items in your pack to the items in your home, and ask yourself what if anything you could have brought with you that would have helped you survive.

If I recall down into a room full of insurmountable nasties I will immediately leave. Unless you have immunity from fire or immunity from cold, carrying your stash around with you simply subjects it to needless attrition. Looking at the ladder, which I started using last year and where I have recorded both wins and (through character name numbering) losses, I have 18 wins in about 45 games. Almost all of the deaths can be attributed to 1) hitting the wrong key by mistake, 2) extremely bad luck, or 3) incredibly stupid though thankfully rare brain fart. Not because I wasn't carrying a heal around with me.

My take on this is that the first Healing, *Healing*, etc. item I find I immediately start carrying with me. Once I build up enough quantity in my backpack, any extras can be stored at home for later. Sort of the opposite of your approach. And yes, this means that I sometimes lose them due to elemental attacks. But that's a price I'm willing to pay for the security of having that Scroll of Destruction or Potion of *Healing* in my back pocket, waiting for the day that Feagwath surprises me with a pack of reavers when I know there's awake and angry dragons and hounds all across the rest of the level...

I don't see the point in carrying stuff around that is better for the endgame than the early or mid-game and yet which is subjected to great risk of destruction in the early and mid-game. Staffs of speed, sure. You know they are likely to be blown out of your hands very quickly but they are useless in the end game. Potions of *Healing*? Hell no.

[Derakon]

Destruction, Rune of Protection, Banishment, Mass Banishment, Teleport Level, Life, and Mana all get stashed by me (up to 40; after that, they are free use). Usually, so too does *Heal*. Heal also stashed, with the caveat that I allow myself to use it to help take out a nasty unique if I have one on me.

The first six I list, though, come in so seldom that you usually want all you can get for the final fights and IMO should not be used earlier (except in a life and death situation). Destruction might be a possible exception to that, as it is a bit more numerous.

You're stashing too much for a hypothetical endgame on the assumption that you make it that far. You should be carrying at least some of most "endgame consumables" for the rare situation in which you find yourself needing it right now, because otherwise you won't survive to make it to the point that you're saving the items for.

What happens if you recall down with an empty stock of big heals and are immediately surrounded by nasties? When you're looking at that tombstone at the end of a game, compare the items in your pack to the items in your home, and ask yourself what if anything you could have brought with you that would have helped you survive.

My take on this is that the first Healing, *Healing*, etc. item I find I immediately start carrying with me. Once I build up enough quantity in my backpack, any extras can be stored at home for later. Sort of the opposite of your approach. And yes, this means that I sometimes lose them due to elemental attacks. But that's a price I'm willing to pay for the security of having that Scroll of Destruction or Potion of *Healing* in my back pocket, waiting for the day that Feagwath surprises me with a pack of reavers when I know there's awake and angry dragons and hounds all across the rest of the level...

Let alone potions of Healing, which I drink like water as the occasion arises.

I make an exception for Potions of Life and Scrolls of Rune of Protection, both of which I consider to be luxury items. They can stay at home because they're extremely unlikely to make the difference between life and death, and thus the marginal extra safety they provide isn't worth the inventory slot in my backpack.

[Pete Mack]

Tele level I always carry. If I get more than a handful I stash some, but a guaranteed escape with no endgame value has zero value unless you can actually use it when you need it.

[Egavactip]

When you would otherwise die. It's an excellent guaranteed escape. Eventually you will want to stash some of them (and the two banishment scrolls and possibly Rune) for the final fight.

Destruction, Rune of Protection, Banishment, Mass Banishment, Teleport Level, Life, and Mana all get stashed by me (up to 40; after that, they are free use). Usually, so too does *Heal*. Heal also stashed, with the caveat that I allow myself to use it to help take out a nasty unique if I have one on me.

Depending on character class, I will also stash Speeds and Berserk Strength, with the same caveat as above. I'm worrying less about Berserk Strength these days, though.

The first six I list, though, come in so seldom that you usually want all you can get for the final fights and IMO should not be used earlier (except in a life and death situation). Destruction might be a possible exception to that, as it is a bit more numerous.

[robbiodobbio]

Got PB3 now, is it best to just use the orb as the primary weapon? Found a quarterstaff of frost so that solves the problem of bladed weapon, but just found "Elvagil" and really want to use it.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Most consumables should be easy to identify by using them; maybe wait until you're a little damaged first. But identify scrolls should be reasonably plentiful so there's no real issue with using them on an item that's irking you by being hard to ID. Of course, if it's hard to ID, then odds are good that it's not very useful (e.g. Neutralize Poison), so who cares if you don't know what it is?

And, if you are playing the nightlies version (i.e., with runeid), then ?Identify do not identify consumables and instead identify runes on armor or weapons ID by use or by selling to a store are the only options for consumables.