to ironman or not to ironman

[DaviddesJ]

If I recall correctly, cloning creates a hasted, fully-healed clone, so it's really not that useful for scumming.

I think there are plenty of enemies with good drops that are so easy to fight (with appropriate resistances and preparation) that it makes no difference at all if they are hasted.

[Derakon]

If I recall correctly, cloning creates a hasted, fully-healed clone, so it's really not that useful for scumming. Quylthulg farming is more helpful. You have less control over what exactly gets summoned, but the summons are at normal speed.

Neither is needed for normal play, though. I could see you needing to do them if you powerdive in an ironman game (going for a super-low turncount), but that's about it.

Alter Reality is similarly problematic for ironman games; fortunately only priests get access to it.

[DaviddesJ]

I have never wanted to clone any monsters, if I really want to fight more enemies without going deeper it's more interesting to just recall and generate a new level at the same depth. It does seem that cloning and ironman are somewhat at odds in spirit.

[MattB]

You could clone weak monsters to surround yourself with them and limit how much room is available for stronger enemies. I'm not sure I'd do that often, but you can at least imagine it as a strategy.

Good thinking! I suppose if I happened to be standing on a wand of clone in an enclosed room with Balrogs and imps, I might even consider doing that. Maybe not Balrogs, the imps wouldn't last long...

That said, there's nothing wrong with having "scummy" game options, like cloning. Let people do it if they want or don't if they don't want. More playstyles = more fun for everyone.

Hum, I suppose so.
Personally I think there are quite enough monsters in the dungeon without making more of the buggers.

[DaviddesJ]

You could clone weak monsters to surround yourself with them and limit how much room is available for stronger enemies. I'm not sure I'd do that often, but you can at least imagine it as a strategy.

That said, there's nothing wrong with having "scummy" game options, like cloning. Let people do it if they want or don't if they don't want. More playstyles = more fun for everyone.

[fizzix]

Seriously though, why do we have an item in the game for which no-one can find a non-scummy use for?

It's supposed to be a "bad effect" wand, like haste monster or heal monster.

[MattB]

Seriously though, why do we have an item in the game for which no-one can find a non-scummy use for?

[MattB]

I guess if you use an unknown wand, clone a monster and then run away screaming it doesn't count as abuse either ;-)

OK, I've been thinking about it all afternoon and I think I've come up with a use for a wand of clone monster that might not be abuse.

How about if you're standing in front of a vault that you can't get into. You could clone an umber hulk a dozen times, slap them silly and set them running!

Of course then you'd need a low damage weapon to send them back towards the vault when they start running back towards you. I think a whip would be fitting - 'Keep them umbers movin' - RAWHIDE!'.

Ideally I'd like immfire and a fire hound nearby to act as a sheepdog.

I really should do some work.

Sod it, Arya IV the High Elf Ranger is off to find a vault, a wand of clone monster, an umber hulk and a fire hound. Oh, and Firestar. Hmm, maybe a source of pConf might be sensible too.

[DaviddesJ]

I'm not entirely clear on why access to the home means you're less worried about conserving consumables, anyway. It's not like the amount of available consumables is any different just because you can return to town; relatively few potions and scrolls are bought in the Black Market in my experience, and past the early game you rarely need to buy C*W potions.

Well, the town does give you infinite scrolls of recharging, which is convenient. But mostly it just makes it easier to hoard a reserve. You can pile up surplus items when you find them and then burn them up when you need them. Using your last X in a fight is no big deal if you've got more stashed in your home; it's more annoying if you know you're never going to have any more until you find some. But you're probably right that it's not that big a difference once you get used to a slightly different style of play.

[quarague]

I guess if you use an unknown wand, clone a monster and then run away screaming it doesn't count as abuse either ;-)

[Derakon]

Uh, I guess you could throw the wands at monsters to wake them up?

[MattB]

I think if you're willing to camp out on a level and abuse cloning (or quylthulg scumming) then honestly you deserve what you get.

How do you not abuse cloning?

(I.e. what use does it have that isn't abuseful?)

[Estie]

What I don't understand about Ironman is how people avoid the enemies they just really aren't ready to fight. Sometimes you can teleport them away, but sometimes they just keep coming back. Do you just give up and descend in those cases, and hope it doesn't happen too often and force you deeper than you want to go?

I can see how farming enemies can compensate for a lot of town trips, but I don't quite see how people handle the avoidance issue.

There are many occasions where some nasty unavoidable monsters force leaving a level early, but youd be surprised at what you can actually kill with careful play. Most orc bosses are easy with a speed potion, but even without one, they are usually very killable if approached carefully. Clearing a suitable area for the fight, isolating the boss and luring him to the prepared area then using fight and phase tactics can work. Thats nothing I would bother with in a normal game, hell no, but in ironman every dead unique is worth something.

There are particulary unpleasant uniques, like Adunaphel, that you can prepare against even in ironman. Having a weapon with undead bonus damage or a wand of fireball handy when entering her depths can enable an early kill.

An ood swarm of dreads, if detected early, can often be dealt with by very careful approach, making sure only 1 is activated at a time. The first fights might be hard and use up consumables, but chances are that their drops are helpful and enable killing the whole group, leaving you stronger than before.

[quarague]

I guess the ironman I was thinking of is a rather mild version, only forbidding the use of the town but without the forced decent. That still gives me the option of leaving a level as often as I feel like (and I feel like doing this a lot ;-) but I would loose the option of buying stuff in town (mostly CCWs and id-staffs) and the extra inventory in the house. Seems like a reasonable choice for someone who has won the game only once.

[Derakon]

I think if you're willing to camp out on a level and abuse cloning (or quylthulg scumming) then honestly you deserve what you get. The game is winnable without resorting to such tactics.

I'm not entirely clear on why access to the home means you're less worried about conserving consumables, anyway. It's not like the amount of available consumables is any different just because you can return to town; relatively few potions and scrolls are bought in the Black Market in my experience, and past the early game you rarely need to buy C*W potions.