What happened to artifacts?

[fph]

WTF? I don't find as many artifacts in a whole game normally...

[Derakon]

26 artifacts in a game is slightly below-average, but not excessively so. Yeah, the spiral GCV should probably be toned down a bit.

[fizzix]

26 artifacts in a game is slightly below-average, but not excessively so. Yeah, the spiral GCV should probably be toned down a bit.

Consider it done. From now on, (after pull request gets through) you might only get about 1/3 of those artifacts from those vaults. They're still far better than any other vault around, but not obscenely so.

Feel free to take a look and see if I've overshot.

[Derakon]

Consider it done. From now on, (after pull request gets through) you might only get about 1/3 of those artifacts from those vaults. They're still far better than any other vault around, but not obscenely so.

Feel free to take a look and see if I've overshot.

No need to supply a link or anything, eh?

I think the original GCV was fine; it was mostly that the spiral GCV was all 8's instead of alternating 8's and @'s like the original GCV that was the problem. That's literally twice as much loot.

EDIT: yeah, found the pull request, and you completely misread me (probably in an attempt to read your own opinions in what I said ). Replacing all the 8s with 9s makes all of these vaults boring pablum. All that needs doing is replacing every other 8 in the spiral GCV with an @. Or an &, I guess.

[Estie]

Not sure if I like this. The thing is that, if your first GV is a spiral and you have barely found any artifacts yet, then yes youll be stuffed now. However, if you find a spiral late, where you already have most of the artifacts you need, chances are there might be no or few upgrades. Of my characters that make it to endgame, less than half ever see a spiral.
This is good, because taking on a spiral early is extremely risky, while it is almost trivial at the end. However, shifting the drop quality away from vaults is bad imo. Already many are on my "dont bother" list. I need to keep track on where I get my items from, but I am pretty sure the amount that comes from vaults is not high - maybe 20% ? I would prefer if vaults were more profitable, not less, because taking on vaults is *way* more fun than running through boring cave levels.

[fizzix]

EDIT: yeah, found the pull request, and you completely misread me (probably in an attempt to read your own opinions in what I said ). Replacing all the 8s with 9s makes all of these vaults boring pablum. All that needs doing is replacing every other 8 in the spiral GCV with an @. Or an &, I guess.

I left about twice as many 8s as you find in any other vault (except for the reward is worth it monstrosity!) I guess you think every other vault is boring pablum? I wish there was a way to simulate just those vaults and do comparisons. I might try to rig up something though.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with Estie's analysis. The bubble vault, which had significantly less 8 spots as the spiral vault generally nets me an endgame set. I guess bubble vaults are even worse because you can choose to ignore most of the nasties.

Regardless, I can change it more, there's no reason this needs to be the final version.

[Derakon]

I left about twice as many 8s as you find in any other vault (except for the reward is worth it monstrosity!) I guess you think every other vault is boring pablum?

I'll admit I didn't see the 8s in my first look at the diff -- reading vault diffs is hard and it sure looked at first glance like you'd replaced every 8 with a 9. But I still stand by my initial statement that the GCV should not be changed. Is it generous? Heck yes. It's also very rare, and it's not remotely risk-free. Every other vault (just about), you can lure out enemies piecemeal. The GCV by its structure requires you to be in LOS of every enemy you "unlock" for probably several turns, and unless you feel like "snaking" them out the long path to the outside of the vault, antisummoning techniques are largely impossible -- the best you can manage is to have 4 enemies adjacent to you. Even if you want to teleport-away every enemy in it you're still looking at a decent amount of risk, especially if you try to take it on when it's at its "most lucrative" (i.e. before you're prepared to actually fight the enemies in it).

Fundamentally I don't think that the GCV is broken, which is why I object so strongly to attempts to "fix" it.

[fizzix]

I'll admit I didn't see the 8s in my first look at the diff -- reading vault diffs is hard and it sure looked at first glance like you'd replaced every 8 with a 9. But I still stand by my initial statement that the GCV should not be changed. Is it generous? Heck yes. It's also very rare, and it's not remotely risk-free. Every other vault (just about), you can lure out enemies piecemeal. The GCV by its structure requires you to be in LOS of every enemy you "unlock" for probably several turns, and unless you feel like "snaking" them out the long path to the outside of the vault, antisummoning techniques are largely impossible -- the best you can manage is to have 4 enemies adjacent to you. Even if you want to teleport-away every enemy in it you're still looking at a decent amount of risk, especially if you try to take it on when it's at its "most lucrative" (i.e. before you're prepared to actually fight the enemies in it).

I dunno. In my experience I find this vault far easier than other ones. Maybe it's a play style thing? What about the bubble vault? Those don't have the same risk (you can avoid line of sight when tunneling through to the baddies) I can throw more of the 8s back in to the GCV if you want. Let me nix the pull request for now. (I'll have to deal with it tomorrow though.)

[Timo Pietilä]

Fundamentally I don't think that the GCV is broken, which is why I object so strongly to attempts to "fix" it.

I agree with that. Game needs some "broken" features which are not actually broken because they are so rare. And fun. Something that gives "WOW!" -reaction in any game where you get it. CGV is one of those things. Even spiral is not that bad because you usually just don't find it unless you play zillion turns at deep levels. Variation.

In related note, I do find most of the other GV types rather boring. Reward just isn't there, or it is too hard to get. Preserve off those other vaults would be interesting, but preserve off early CGV would be disaster.

[Derakon]

I dunno. In my experience I find this vault far easier than other ones. Maybe it's a play style thing? What about the bubble vault? Those don't have the same risk (you can avoid line of sight when tunneling through to the baddies) I can throw more of the 8s back in to the GCV if you want. Let me nix the pull request for now. (I'll have to deal with it tomorrow though.)

I honestly think the right thing to do here is just modify the spiral vault so that it has the same distribution as the normal GCV -- that is, alternating 8s and &s.

I don't have much experience with the bubble vault, but from the looks of things it's pretty horrible terrain to fight in because there's so much room around you to summon things into.