[V 3.4.0 RC 1] Question about how to survive "Something screams the word 'DIE!'."

[Zyphyr]

Without also changing the Class and Race stat modifiers, going to "Average roll +Mods" will require great care due to the extreme range of mods currently in place.

Str ranges from +9 (Half Troll Warrior) to -7 (Hobbit Mage)
Int from +6 (High Elf Mage) to -9 (Half Troll Warrior)
Wis from 5 (Dwarf or Dunedan Priest) to -4 (Half Troll Warrior or Rogue)
Dex from 6 (Hobbit or High Elf Rogue) to -5 (Half Troll Priest)
Con from 5 (HT or Dun War or Pal) to -4 (Elf Mage)
Cha from 7 (High Elf Priest or Paladin) to -7 (Half Troll Warrior or Rogue)

Assuming an average roll of 11, that gives starting ranges of :
STR 4 to 20
Int 2 to 17
Wis 7 to 16
Dex 6 to 17
Con 7 to 16
Cha 4 to 18

Boy am I an idiot, I just kinda switched from INT to STR there midstream, so 7-10 STR would be a more typical mage.

Normal starting STR for mages would be 4 to 7 due to the -5 class penalty, and the best +STR a mage can get while still have +Int is a +1 (High Elf/Dunedan).

[buzzkill]

Boy am I an idiot, I just kinda switched from INT to STR there midstream, so 7-10 STR would be a more typical mage.

[fizzix]

Well maybe not a 7 of STR. 7 is weak, mage or not.

Figure that 9-12 is 'normal' given 3d6 generation, and that a magely race would likely get a point or two or three INT bonus, that leaves us with 11-14 average CL1 mage STR. As long as that is sufficient to carry the first 4 books, with 5 or 10 lbs of additional items/armour, I'd be happy. If such a mage desired more carrying capacity, rings of STR, stat swap, and minor speed boosts (to overcome slowing by burden) are all achievable early game options.

Some of the problems with mage strength an carrying capacity can be allayed by making books weigh 1/3 of their current weight. Gnome mages have a lot of maluses to strength, they'll probably be at STR = 3 with an average roll...

[Magnate]

No doubt, but the benefits would be worth it. Currently, we have stats that range from 3-40, with everything below 18, nearly half the scale, largely irrevelent. It's like too muck junk, for stats.

Go on then - send me a spreadsheet of linearised stats and stat effects, and I'll put it into v4.

[buzzkill]

I agree with you, though fizzix's general point is still valid - it would require quite a lot of changes to get to the point where people felt comfortable just starting a character with average stats (i.e. 9-12 in most stats, say ~15 in their primary stat and ~6 in their dump stat).

No doubt, but the benefits would be worth it. Currently, we have stats that range from 3-40, with everything below 18, nearly half the scale, largely irrevelent. It's like too muck junk, for stats.

[Magnate]

Well maybe not a 7 of STR. 7 is weak, mage or not.

Figure that 9-12 is 'normal' given 3d6 generation, and that a magely race would likely get a point or two or three INT bonus, that leaves us with 11-14 average CL1 mage STR. As long as that is sufficient to carry the first 4 books, with 5 or 10 lbs of additional items/armour, I'd be happy. If such a mage desired more carrying capacity, rings of STR, stat swap, and minor speed boosts (to overcome slowing by burden) are all achievable early game options.

I agree with you, though fizzix's general point is still valid - it would require quite a lot of changes to get to the point where people felt comfortable just starting a character with average stats (i.e. 9-12 in most stats, say ~15 in their primary stat and ~6 in their dump stat).

[buzzkill]

• Do not penalize low STR as badly as we do now. (mainly carrying capacity but also blows) A mage with STR of 7 should be able to carry 6 books, 15 potions, 10 wands, a couple rods, 20 scrolls, and a staff or two, light armor on all body parts and a long sword without being slowed.

This goes far beyond just linearizing CON, it's really a massive project and probably requires a full redesign.

Well maybe not a 7 of STR. 7 is weak, mage or not.

Figure that 9-12 is 'normal' given 3d6 generation, and that a magely race would likely get a point or two or three INT bonus, that leaves us with 11-14 average CL1 mage STR. As long as that is sufficient to carry the first 4 books, with 5 or 10 lbs of additional items/armour, I'd be happy. If such a mage desired more carrying capacity, rings of STR, stat swap, and minor speed boosts (to overcome slowing by burden) are all achievable early game options.

[fizzix]

I think significantly lowering starting stats is an excellent idea - and it brings us neatly back to the idea of scrapping point-based generation!!

I don't quite follow that reasoning. However, I could imagine a situation where a random auto-rolled character is preferred, both for fun and for average performance. To do this we need the following.

• Do not penalize low STR as badly as we do now. (mainly carrying capacity but also blows) A mage with STR of 7 should be able to carry 6 books, 15 potions, 10 wands, a couple rods, 20 scrolls, and a staff or two, light armor on all body parts and a long sword without being slowed.
• Do penalize low INT and WIS for non-casters. Imagine a situation where INT of 3 means 95% fail rate on devices (but INT 7 is ok). WIS of 3 means 0% saving throw (50% with resistance??)
• Low CHR cause massive price increase. CHR of 3 could put prices up 10x regular values. CHR of 7 => 5x. CHR 10 => what is current for CHR of 3. (other alternatives like dropping CHR entirely probably should be considered if we do go this route)
• DEX breakpoints need to be moved up.

This goes far beyond just linearizing CON, it's really a massive project and probably requires a full redesign.

[Magnate]

There's another concern that I forgot to mention besides throwing off the early game. Right now mage gear is heavily constrained to need lots of CON bonuses. This is because, with a mage you can't really get by with < 18/180 CON since those last few points are so valuable. It's not necessarily a good thing that it's this way, but making the CON gains linear will make the endgame gear hunt easier.

IMO we should get the fundamental mechanics right - intuitive, smooth, proportionate - and then adjust item generation accordingly. It's easy to make +CON less common.

I did understand what Derakon was getting at btw - "linearising the stat system" means linearising the gains as well as the numbers. There is little point doing one without the other, given the work involved.

I don't think there's any problem with 10 to 11 adding 10% and 39 to 40 adding only 2.5% - smoothly diminishing proportional returns is much more intuitive than what we have now.

I think significantly lowering starting stats is an excellent idea - and it brings us neatly back to the idea of scrapping point-based generation!!

[fizzix]

There's another concern that I forgot to mention besides throwing off the early game. Right now mage gear is heavily constrained to need lots of CON bonuses. This is because, with a mage you can't really get by with < 18/180 CON since those last few points are so valuable. It's not necessarily a good thing that it's this way, but making the CON gains linear will make the endgame gear hunt easier.

[Derakon]

That is what I was getting at, yes. Thanks, Fizzix.

It's a tricky thing to fix because if you adjust everything to a more linear scale then most characters are overpowered in the beginning. It really gets at more fundamental gameplay questions and mucking with it will change gameplay a lot.

One potential way to rebalance after linearizing returns on stats would be to drastically reduce starting stats. For example, if everyone started at 10 + race + class (i.e. with no points to buy stats with) then half-troll warriors would start with 17 STR instead of 18/50 (i.e. 23). Looking at, say, the STR bonus to prowess, it's -30 at STR=3 and +260 at STR=40, thus, you should get about 8 points of prowess per point of STR under a linearized system, starting from -30 of course. The old half-troll warrior with STR of 23 gets a prowess bonus of 60 (+90 from baseline, 90/23 ~= 4 points/STR), while the new with STR of 17 would get (-30 + 14 * 8 = 82). 82 is of course bigger than 60, so the "new" half-troll warrior would be better than the "old" one, but we'd be in the right ballpark.

It's worth noting that a linear return on points is also a diminishing return on proportional gain, though. If every point in CON gives you +.5 hitpoints per level, then going from CON = 10 to CON = 11 gets you a (11 / 10 - 1) = 10% increase in your hitpoint bonus, while going from CON = 39 to CON = 40 gets you a (40 / 39 - 1) = 2.5% increase. In other words, the marginal utility of each additional point decreases. Which is not the same thing as saying that stats are not worth maxing -- it depends on how valuable they are -- but it is an effect to be aware of.

I think the general problem is more that most stats are currently not worth raising at all unless you can get them into the superlinear region. In the early game, you need STR for carrying capacity and either DEX for melee blows or your spellcasting stat for MP/failure rate; all other stats are basically completely pointless; you only put points into them during character creation because it'll save you time later on once you hit stat gain.

[fizzix]

This is another long-standing wishlist item.

That's not quite what Derakon was getting at, although if I recall from the code that shouldn't be too difficult to change. (I'll put it on my stuff to look at post 3.4)

Derakon was pointing out that there's almost no difference between 13-18 for a lot of stats you care about. HP bonuses to CON, SP values, and in this case saving throws. However there's a super linear increase after say 18/100. What this results in is a separation of an early game, where your growth comes from gaining levels, and a later game where your growth comes from increasing stats and finding equipment. It's a tricky thing to fix because if you adjust everything to a more linear scale then most characters are overpowered in the beginning. It really gets at more fundamental gameplay questions and mucking with it will change gameplay a lot.

[Magnate]

You can blame the anti-diminishing returns for this. Most of the benefits to your saving throw come from getting your WIS up above 18; there's very little difference between WIS of 8 and WIS of 17.

This is another long-standing wishlist item.

[Derakon]

I guess when I roll I just take what I get, which stops the time issue. As long as both systems are avaliable people can play whichever way they want. I think half the problem is having almost useless stats (int,wis & chr on fighters for instance). Perhaps if the wisdom bonus to save was a bigger deal there'd be a bit more variety.

You can blame the anti-diminishing returns for this. Most of the benefits to your saving throw come from getting your WIS up above 18; there's very little difference between WIS of 8 and WIS of 17.

[Starhawk]

Imma try it.

"DIE!!!!!!!"

Did anyone?

A.

*urk* *thud*