Random Hit Points

[zaimoni]

To zaimoni's comment: I must disagree; it *is* noticeable. It's how you get those really low 8th and 10th level hit point totals.

That's not how I got ~48 hp at CL 8 for a V2.9.3 Dunadan paladin with 17 CON.

When your rolls are below average, even -1 hit point per level REALLY stands out in those cases when the die size is smaller...primarily, any mage, any priest except maybe half-troll, and any hobbit, kobold, or elf ranger, rogue, or paladin.

-1 hp/level is CON 5 (until the stat tables get rebalanced).

In the early game, rolling a bunch of 1's and 2's, versus near-maximum rolls, dominates starting CON. Even that matters before stat-gain only for the optimized melee competent classes (fighter and paladin); the others don't have enough melee attack damage rate to make burning through hp, and then recovering, a viable level-vacuuming early-game strategy.

[zaimoni]

You know what's bugged me for along time? The fact that when you level up, you get a random number of hit points depending on your level and class.

Actually, I never even noticed this until I once had a Kobold Priest who was lvl 8 with 24 hp. Should hit point generation be less random? Is it just me? I mean, if you roll a Half-troll Warrior, shouldn't you pretty much be *guaranteed* hit points coming out of your ears? If the RNG gods hate you, you might end up with less than a gnome mage...

Actually, the hit dice for all levels are rolled at character creation. [ZAngband variants also provide potions for rerolling those hit dice en masse.] Character level fifty hitpoints, ignoring CON bonuses, are constrained to be between 3/8ths and 5/8ths of theoretical maximum.

A technically easy solution is to sort the hit dice rolls in nonstrictly decreasing order.

[pampl]

Now, it may well be that 2 separate die rolls would reduce the problem to a degree that, practically speaking, it would be eliminated...for everyone *but* mages. As noted, their hit point calculation doesn't change. This is where tweaking the Con-based hit points, at the low end, can come into play.

You could just shift a constant value from race HP die to class HP die.. say, 3 points. Then hobbit mages would be d4 + d3 instead of d7 + 0 (or is it d8?), etc. That would reduce the variance for everyone but a few perverse cases like hobbit warriors.

[Derakon]

Is it really so bad to have a character with low early hitpoints, though? It'll balance out eventually. Some characters have harder starts than others; some have easier.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Yes, 2 separate die rolls would also reduce the variance, and the mean only goes up by 0.5. d10 has variance of 99/12; d9 has variance 80/12; d19 has variance of 360/12. So d10+d9 has a variance of about 15, whereas the d19 is 30.

To Zyph's comment: a d16 (e.g. dunadan paladin) has a mean of 8.5; a d10+6 has a mean of 11.5. 150 hit points @ 50th level...so there is some inflation. And warrior's obviously worse. Mage is irrelevant because neither my suggestion nor d_m's alternative (which is fine by me too) affect mages. Priest and ranger probably could be left alone, tho.

To zaimoni's comment: I must disagree; it *is* noticeable. It's how you get those really low 8th and 10th level hit point totals. When your rolls are below average, even -1 hit point per level REALLY stands out in those cases when the die size is smaller...primarily, any mage, any priest except maybe half-troll, and any hobbit, kobold, or elf ranger, rogue, or paladin. The e.g. dunadan priest is rolling a d12, so the mean's 6.5. -1 means a 15% reduction.

Now, it may well be that 2 separate die rolls would reduce the problem to a degree that, practically speaking, it would be eliminated...for everyone *but* mages. As noted, their hit point calculation doesn't change. This is where tweaking the Con-based hit points, at the low end, can come into play.

[d_m]

If you go that far, then I'd just as soon remove *all* randomness.

Another factor at play here: does very low Con *cost* hit points? I don't want to dig through to find out. The reason it comes to mind is that kobold priest should be getting 10-siders, as I understand it...8 from race, 2 from class. 8d10 is NOT gonna give 24 very often...but 8 * (d10-2) would.

One option, as a middle ground: make it d(race) + class. So a dunadan (10) warrior (9) would get d10+9, not d19, per level.

Just changing it to d9 + d10 would (basically) preserve the mean while reducing the variance (d9 + d10 -> 10.5 mean, d19 -> 10 mean).

[zaimoni]

Another factor at play here: does very low Con *cost* hit points?

Yes. It's not a particularly noticeable penality at low character levels, though.

[Zyphyr]

One option, as a middle ground: make it d(race) + class. So a dunadan (10) warrior (9) would get d10+9, not d19, per level.

I rather like this option, though in this case the Class numbers would need to lowered a bit to offset the inflation in HP that would otherwise result.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

If you go that far, then I'd just as soon remove *all* randomness.

Another factor at play here: does very low Con *cost* hit points? I don't want to dig through to find out. The reason it comes to mind is that kobold priest should be getting 10-siders, as I understand it...8 from race, 2 from class. 8d10 is NOT gonna give 24 very often...but 8 * (d10-2) would.

One option, as a middle ground: make it d(race) + class. So a dunadan (10) warrior (9) would get d10+9, not d19, per level.

[jevansau]

I quite like Nile's second suggestion.

[Nile]

The amount of randomness in the hitdice has always bugged me. I like the idea of the OP. You could do it two ways, like this:

Human = 3 + d4
Half-Elf = 3 + d3
Elf = 3 + d2

Or this:

Human = 4 + d2
Half-Elf = 3.5 + d2
Elf = 3 + d2

[Derakon]

Ehh, I don't have a problem with this. Some characters are going to be harder than others, whether that be down to bad hitpoint rolls, bad treasure rolls, bad monster rolls, or anything else along those lines.

(This may not seem to gel with my earlier statements on disliking hobbits because of their poor hitdice, but that's a question of how you turn out on average, not how you turn out in specific)

[camlost]

I'm pretty sure that V requires that the base total be within some range at level 50, but doesn't have any safeguards against early bad rolls. Some variants include safeguards along the way.

[Sirridan]

Yeah, it is a bit distressing to have 50 hit points as a level 10 high elf mage one game, then 80 the next, or maybe even 100?

I had 30 at level 10 once, it was nuts. Character didn't last long at all.

[dos350]

i understand your grief, eee but please no ! it is good as is