Tweaking the game to shorten/condense it

[mrfy]

I'll bite and be the one to ask it. Does anyone actually like Angband being 100-level long, or at this point it's only a "it's always been like that" and no one would mind if it got, say, 20 levels shorter, if not more?

I like it the way it is. I'd also be ok with more levels. Not less.

[Raerick]

On game length
I like the full 100 floors. I do not agree that shortening the game would make it more exciting. If you die because you got careless and bored then that is on you. There is nothing stopping you from diving as quickly as you want (though I wish that there was.) You can find deep descent as early as DL 1 after all. Other roguelikes may be shorter on overall levels, but nearly all the ones I know of do not let you skip large chunks of them with a stack of scrolls you can find on the first floor. For me there isn't a part of the dungeon I find boring overall. Early game is fun setting a foundation for my character, ID'ing runes, ID'ing potions/scrolls/staves/wands/rods, and acquiring useful gear. Mid game is fun growing my character, upgrading gear, finishing up the ID'ing, and cleaning out uniques. Late game is fun finishing out my kit for Morgoth, topping off the necessary consumables for the fight, and finishing off most of the uniques. That is one the the things I think I do different from others. I try to kill all the uniques except without scumming to find them. Yes even the really annoying or dangerous ones (unless I am down on my luck) such as the Terrasque. I don't even consider it a win if I beat Morgoth after running from the uniques. Sometimes I don't even play it "safe" with those uniques like is common practice (except the more annoying summoners, cause that gets out of hand.) Nothing is as exhilerating as fighting two decently powerful uniques at the same time, or fighting somwhat powerful uniques that are supported by decently powerful monsters. Sure death looms over my character, but each move means that much more an becomes that much more entertaining.

Cutting down the size of the game is like giving up on what makes the game fun for me. It is also barring a few exceptions I rarely dive quickly. I don't scum levels either. I don't flee from a level unless I have already started to get my ass kicked or after thinking for a few minutes realize that I will be able to do nothing but get my ass kicked. I explore as much of every level as I can as well. I want to experience as much of the journey as possible, otherwise rolling up my character at all would feel pointless and mechanical. I savor all of the emotions from the character's journey.

For those who don't agree you have solutions already. Deep descent is on such example, and even stairs are fairly common place. The question I would ask though is this; Sure, you can skip a lot, and you can play good and safe to maximize your chances to defeat Morgoth for the umpteenth time, but is that really enjoyable? Is having the path to victory over Morgoth be as short and safe as possible really fun? Was the game less fun when you didn't know what the hell you were doing most of the time and finally managed to win in the end? I would disagree, but that is just me. I can't turn back time to when everything was a new experience and I didn't have my optimal strategies worked out, but cutting out most of the game won't do that either. It won't make it more fun for me to experience less just because I had already experienced everything that was necessary to win dozens of times already. Going through more of the game and playing riskier may reduce my win ratio, but it brings me a step closer to when everything was novel, and it gives that victory more meaning.

Lowering the floor count to me is like cheating. Not in the sense of breaking the rules, but in the sense of cheating yourself. You can already make the game as short or as long as you want via mechanics that already exist. Making it shorter officially by removing floors is just avoiding that responsibility on your end. Hence cheating yourself.

On the economy
I do happen to agree that shops need more interesting or useful things to buy late game. While I think there are arguably things that can be added to further improve an already great game, the one thing that I think is an actual definite flaw that has yet to be addressed is the broken economy. From my experience the economy breaks completely roughly around DL40. Sometimes it is sooner or later depending on how quickly one dives or how much one revisits floors. Now there are still useful or necessary things to buy, but they do not consume enough money by that point to make much of a dent compared to the money accumulated.

The game functions just fine even with a broken economy. It is mostly just an annoyance for people like me who have a difficult time separating money from the notion of being a useful and/or necessary resource. In situations where money just accumulates without end and without purpose I get slightly depressed just seeing it.

Adding things to buy that are more expensive would help. Reducing the overall amount of AU given from piles of treasure would help. Having more ways to lose treasure would help as well.

[smbhax]

Just have Morgoth spawn in town on April 1st. ; P

[Pete Mack]

I think you are making a category error on game economy. The economy is determined entirely by scarcity of critical consumables: money is useful primarily in that you can afford them on those rare instances they show up in the black market. Yes, you can rarely find nice gear there. But those are luxury goods and rarely serve as game changerd. A stack of 8 Tele level, or an early wand of TO? Those are game changers. The economics come in using them well.

[Raerick]

I think you are making a category error on game economy. The economy is determined entirely by scarcity of critical consumables: money is useful primarily in that you can afford them on those rare instances they show up in the black market. Yes, you can rarely find nice gear there. But those are luxury goods and rarely serve as game changerd. A stack of 8 Tele level, or an early wand of TO? Those are game changers. The economics come in using them well.

Even if that argument is taken for granted there is no reason for AU piles to be so inflated. There are indeed useful things to buy throughout the game, but past a shallow depth they pretty much have no impact on the wealth of the player. They might as well just be free by that point. The main problem is the over abundance of AU, but there are still some things that could be added to the black market rotation. For example scrolls of Rune of Protection. Without scumming I might find a 4 or 5 throughout a game, hardly worth devoting a slot to, but what if the black market occasionally sold one or two at a high cost? I don't believe that would upset the balance of the game terribly, but it would increase both the usefulness of devoting a slot to that item and the usefulness of money.

Making too many late game resources available for purchase wouldn't be preferable from my viewpoint. If that is your worry, then I agree. Their rarity is what gives them value. Having a windfall by finding them in the dungeon is part of the fun. I just don't agree that having piles of useless money past the first half of the dungeon is something that should be acceptable. At the very least the amount of money that can be gained needs to be lowered to give the appearance that gold has value. Even on an ironman game where I actively ignore piles of treasure I end up with enough gold to swim in it like Scrooge McDuck.

[bron]

If you want some use for all that gold you're accumulating, just buy out everything in the Black Market. The shopkeeper will restock. It's a crap-shoot (an expensive one), but it does give you something to do with your cash.

I'd like to see the black market stop carrying ordinary weapons and armor. Generate the same number, but they should be ego's.

[Estie]

Premise: The majority of valuable items should be found in the dungeon, not bought. Therefore, the amount of trade with shops (the bm in particular) has to be limited. You can do that either by limiting the supply (current state) or limiting the amount of currency.

If you want the latter, you end up with prices balanced for endgame @s and hence the bm will be ignored completely untill then since there are no items affordable before @ has collected 40 levels worth of money.

I think the current state is preferable.

[Hounded]

Have money occupy an equipment spot (25,000 gp/slot carried or unlimited single spot in your home) and nominal weight. For the iron-man types it remains irrelevant (squelch), for those who wish to play the money game it's available and a bit more realistic and for the rest it can be largely ignored if they so choose.

The concept could be over-developed (types of coins vs. gems carried in different types of chests etc etc) but I doubt it's worth the effort.

I've personally no complaints with the status quo but that'd be my 876274 AU worth of thought on the subject.

[ewert]

Blackmarket loses value only after quite long into the game, where it is mostly about getting bonkers artifacts and consumables. Rarely about a sweet Great weapon.

There are some stuff that IMHO are too rare to have a slot for just a single item. Rod of Healing works as a slot for a while, but not after you are starting to hit the really big uniques. Rod of Speed actually works all the way to Morgoth pretty much. Rod of Restoration is a nice.

If not the Rods, definitely the staves. Just have ridiculous prices. Staff of Healing, Staff of Speed, those will always be carried around until they go poof with recharges really, etc. 200k for one? I'd pay it right away in the end game if I had it.