Dwarven Fencer Smith build viable?

[locus]

@the other obvious weapon:

2 lb deathblades do 1d9 / 6 points, which is slightly better than great spears or shortswords it seems + 1 extra point base damage + better granularity.

@granularity:

I thought less about averages - the differences are after all not equally likely with opposed rolls - and concluded that I am very unlikely above the double critical difference margin against most enemies during the game. There will be double critical hits, but the most likely hits will be slightly less. (After all, I know shortswords work, I have yet to see a plain great spear user.)

@shortswords vs. spears:

There is another relevant difference, say if you have 1 pt. strength instead of 0 or a damage ring or an increased weapon damage, the larger number of critical hits suddenly matters directly for damage.

@0.9 lb shortswords:

I know, still it is relevant to the OP. Every time I contemplate about playing a 0 strength fencer I deplore this change, in fact I may reinstall 1.1.1 to do such a char myself, people who play 1.1.1 should definitely try this out.

The change was made according to mpa-Sil where people had wicked 0.5lb / 1d7 daggers lying all over the place and still did not use them - of course you do not see the utility in 0.9lb shortswords under such circumstances. I am not hardcore enough to go with daggers (1d5 ones) with a non-stealth char in Sil, however. Maybe I try with Nargil or Angrist, if I have a suitable char that finds it early.

The differences are not all equally likely with opposed rolls, but given the wide variety of enemy evasions and the way your own melee will change over the course of the game, a pattern is hard to establish. Uniform distribution was a simplifying assumption.

I think you underestimate how frequently one will beat the target number by 18+. It's technically possible even with a melee score equal to the enemy's evasion, and a fencer build will of course try to have melee well in excess of the enemy's evasion. In particular, many of the really tough enemies you need to do large amounts of damage to have low evasion - it doesn't matter too much how many crits you get against a dragonfly.

Yes, once you start getting masterwork/enchanted/artifact weapons, the math gets worse for the greatspear. Note though to be fair, the greatspear can benefit from up to 3 points of extra strength, while the shortsword can only benefit from 1. The greatspear has a greater total potential to be boosted by strength.

I like the change, making 0.9lbs shortswords always felt gamey to me. A matter of taste, though.

@HM: A 1lbs 2d6 throwing axe is 29 difficulty, and requires artifice.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I've never mentioned on forum, or posted any characters of it, but I too have thought a "subtle axe" would be wonderfully fun. I never got one off the ground... but I'm absolutely horrible at anything other than the same thing I play over and over again.

As far as drops, I have rarely seen 2d6 throwing axes... The first time I saw one was the inspiration for a subtle axe character, but you surely can't count on finding one... I think I've only ever seen two. Don't know the cost to smith one... probably high... 2 upgrades on damage dice is expensive IIRC.

[taptap]

@the other obvious weapon:

2 lb deathblades do 1d9 / 6 points, which is slightly better than great spears or shortswords it seems + 1 extra point base damage + better granularity.

@granularity:

I thought less about averages - the differences are after all not equally likely with opposed rolls - and concluded that I am very unlikely above the double critical difference margin against most enemies during the game. There will be double critical hits, but the most likely hits will be slightly less. (After all, I know shortswords work, I have yet to see a plain great spear user.)

@shortswords vs. spears:

There is another relevant difference, say if you have 1 pt. strength instead of 0 or a damage ring or an increased weapon damage, the larger number of critical hits suddenly matters directly for damage.

@0.9 lb shortswords:

I know, still it is relevant to the OP. Every time I contemplate about playing a 0 strength fencer I deplore this change, in fact I may reinstall 1.1.1 to do such a char myself, people who play 1.1.1 should definitely try this out.

The change was made according to mpa-Sil where people had wicked 0.5lb / 1d7 daggers lying all over the place and still did not use them - of course you do not see the utility in 0.9lb shortswords under such circumstances. I am not hardcore enough to go with daggers (1d5 ones) with a non-stealth char in Sil, however. Maybe I try with Nargil or Angrist, if I have a suitable char that finds it early.

[locus]

I encourage all fencer and polearm builds, but average bonus damage per skill point is misleading as critical hits come in discrete units. With subtlety there are simply more of them leading to more average damage, even if numbers are close when you hit the critical hit exactly without "wasting" points in the roll.

The whole point of 0 strength / 0.9 lb for fencers is not the slightly increased critical hits compared to 1 lb, it is subtlety+rapid attack without penalties. You can simply not do a spear build based on rapid attack not affecting average damage. That is why there is no intrinsic reason, other than the challenge, to make a 0 strength polearm character.

When starting 0 strength chars as fencers I found it useful to make a glaive at the first forge until I got sufficient accuracy and subtlety to do damage that way. You do not have to build the whole character at the first forge.

Yeah, I thought a bit about the granularity issue. A shortsword will "waste" 0-4 points on any given roll, whereas a lance will "waste" 0-8. But this effect is pretty small - the shortsword loses 1.6 damage on average to granularity while the lance loses 3.1, for a difference of 1.5 damage. And note that the granularity loss doesn't scale with number of criticals - the worst you're ever going to do is roll 9n+8 over the target number. So the 1.5 damage lost to granularity is always going to be small compared to the 3 extra points of base damage the greatspear deals.

0.9 lbs weapons are dead, for people playing current versions. The OP might be able to use them, but for the purposes of up-to-date games, the only way you'll be able to Rapid Attack without a strength penalty is with daggers.

[half]

With a 3lbs greatspear and finesse, you do 1d13 extra damage per 9 you go over the target number, or about .78 damage per point. With a 1lbs shortsword, finesse, and subtlety, you do 1d7 extra damage per 5 you go over the target number, or .8 damage per point. They're very comparable, and the greatspear has the advantage that you don't have to buy subtlety and that it does higher base damage.

One major advantage the shortsword has, though, is that it does more total criticals, which is important for Cruel Blow and for the morale effects. Also, you're more likely to find an appropriate magical/masterwork/artifact shortsword as loot than to find a similar greatspear.

This is a very nice analysis!

[taptap]

I encourage all fencer and polearm builds, but average bonus damage per skill point is misleading as critical hits come in discrete units. With subtlety there are simply more of them leading to more average damage, even if numbers are close when you hit the critical hit exactly without "wasting" points in the roll.

The whole point of 0 strength / 0.9 lb for fencers is not the slightly increased critical hits compared to 1 lb, it is subtlety+rapid attack without penalties. You can simply not do a spear build based on rapid attack not affecting average damage. That is why there is no intrinsic reason, other than the challenge, to make a 0 strength polearm character.

When starting 0 strength chars as fencers I found it useful to make a glaive at the first forge until I got sufficient accuracy and subtlety to do damage that way. You do not have to build the whole character at the first forge.

[locus]

I guess the greatspear has -1 acc compared to the shortsword unless you buy polearm mastery, which eliminates the advantage of not having to take subtlety. But polearm mastery also gives you a useful ability, so it's still somewhat in the greatspear's favor.

[locus]

So with the spear, the damage range is so high, that you don't worry about having str add sides? if the weight reduces the number of crits, you don't mind as much since you do so much with each multiple? I must apologize as I am a bit ignorant of how using spears can be optimized.

The difference between 3 str and 0 str on a greatspear is about 25% more damage: not nothing, but not the 60% more damage you'd get on a longsword or the 300% more damage you'd get on a war hammer. So that makes it a reasonable choice for low str characters.

With a 3lbs greatspear and finesse, you do 1d13 extra damage per 9 you go over the target number, or about .78 damage per point. With a 1lbs shortsword, finesse, and subtlety, you do 1d7 extra damage per 5 you go over the target number, or .8 damage per point. They're very comparable, and the greatspear has the advantage that you don't have to buy subtlety and that it does higher base damage.

One major advantage the shortsword has, though, is that it does more total criticals, which is important for Cruel Blow and for the morale effects. Also, you're more likely to find an appropriate magical/masterwork/artifact shortsword as loot than to find a similar greatspear.

[Ipnoom]

So with the spear, the damage range is so high, that you don't worry about having str add sides? if the weight reduces the number of crits, you don't mind as much since you do so much with each multiple? I must apologize as I am a bit ignorant of how using spears can be optimized.

[locus]

Looking at it, 13 smithing skill means you can make a 4 lbs +1 acc greatspear, or a 3 lbs normal one (and then you wouldn't have to buy artistry, at least for the first forge)

[locus]

I should point out that I am using 1.1.1 since that is what I play on my phone, if that makes a difference.

Yeah, the weight system is different in 1.2, with implications for fencing smiths. I guess I can't really give you advice then. Trying to fence with a 2d4 weapon is still probably a bad idea regardless.

[Ipnoom]

I should point out that I am using 1.1.1 since that is what I play on my phone, if that makes a difference.

[locus]

I wonder if maybe a dwarf fencer smith shouldn't use a greatspear? you couldn't take subtlety, but you'd get huge crits, and you could have all the fun of polearm mastery. I'm playing crap-elves right now but if I ever go back to dwarves I might try that build.

[locus]

Hello all, hopefully this has not been covered, but in my glances through the forum, I did not see this covered, but if it has, please feel free to link me to it

I am thinking if you took a Naugrim of the House of Nogrod, 0/3/4/4 starting stats. Put 7 points into smithing, 3 points into melee and 4 points into evasion. Take Weaponsmithing, Jewelry, and artistry. This idea had you making a throwing axe that is +1 and .9 lbs and 2 rings of accuracy +2 at the first forge. As you level, you take finesse, subtlety etc.

I am not sure if this is viable, or if there is some sort of defect to the throwing axe being wielded by hand or if sub 1 lb axes drop very often (or ever) or any comments.

Feel free to criticize or amend anything I have suggested.

I don't think you can craft .9 lbs weapons anymore. Also throwing axes are bad fencing weapons because their dice are so small. A crit with a shortsword is worth two with a throwing axe (not quite, but you get my point).

[Ipnoom]

Hello all, hopefully this has not been covered, but in my glances through the forum, I did not see this covered, but if it has, please feel free to link me to it

I am thinking if you took a Naugrim of the House of Nogrod, 0/3/4/4 starting stats. Put 7 points into smithing, 3 points into melee and 4 points into evasion. Take Weaponsmithing, Jewelry, and artistry. This idea had you making a throwing axe that is +1 and .9 lbs and 2 rings of accuracy +2 at the first forge. As you level, you take finesse, subtlety etc.

I am not sure if this is viable, or if there is some sort of defect to the throwing axe being wielded by hand or if sub 1 lb axes drop very often (or ever) or any comments.

Feel free to criticize or amend anything I have suggested.