[Sil] Do you clear levels?

[locus]

Oh, wobbly. You don't know, and we don't know, and they don't know. Welcome to game design for complex games.

You could do some experiments and get an estimate if you wanted.

[locus]

Just thinking out loud, but the thing about infinitely common forges basically turns Smithing into a "crafting" mechanic. Where if you have the raw materials and the skills, you can just do it. That would actually be easier to balance for than Sil's Smithing, since it removes an axis of randomness (that of finding forges). Not that it'd be more fun. Axes of randomness are fun.

But Smithing might be interesting to think about from that perspective, just for a touchstone for balance, before you add that extra axis.

But the thing is there are no raw materials in the game except mithril! And if there were, you'd be replacing the randomness of finding forges with the randomness of finding raw materials, and it's not clear you make out.

[BlueFish]

Out of curiousity, what is the probability of a random forge? Say you miss the "guaranteed" forge for whatever reason what are the odds of getting another anyway with-in the next couple of levels?

Oh, wobbly. You don't know, and we don't know, and they don't know. Welcome to game design for complex games.

[wobbly]

Out of curiousity, what is the probability of a random forge? Say you miss the "guaranteed" forge for whatever reason what are the odds of getting another anyway with-in the next couple of levels?

[BlueFish]

If forges are infinitely common, you can smith artifacts to go in all your slots after building a perfect set of forging gear. If they're rare, you have to decide how far to press your luck and prioritize your slots.

Just thinking out loud, but the thing about infinitely common forges basically turns Smithing into a "crafting" mechanic. Where if you have the raw materials and the skills, you can just do it. That would actually be easier to balance for than Sil's Smithing, since it removes an axis of randomness (that of finding forges). Not that it'd be more fun. Axes of randomness are fun.

But Smithing might be interesting to think about from that perspective, just for a touchstone for balance, before you add that extra axis.

[BlueFish]

Try a wizard mode game and dive to 950... wizard mode command to fully map level is "w". You'll find that the probability of a forge on 900-950 levels is already about 20%. At least that's what I found. If there was an additional 20% to add a forge to a forgeless level, then the probability of a forge would be 35%, which doesn't seem like a game breaker to me. It takes a while to explore those levels after all.

I just did as much of a scientific experiment as my patience allows for, which is 50 levels, going between 900 and 950. 17 had forges (some more than 1), which is 34% of levels at that range. Note that probably zero of those were forced, since I was barely moving and wouldn't have triggered the current forced forge mechanic. Adding in a flat 20% forced forge mechanic to the 34% random forges and you'd go from 1/3 of deep levels with forges to 1/2.

If deep forges were found to be too common while shallow forges were found to be ok with a flat forced forge % mechanic, you could always modify the flat % to be based on depth, with lower depths having lower flat % for forced forges, to account for their much larger random forge chance. That would still be a memory-less system which would not motivate smiths to fully explore levels any more than any other character.

[BlueFish]

Well, it would mean you'd only have to explore each depth once.

And if you get boxed in by rubble prior to finding a means of digging, or boxed in by chasms without leaping, or have part of the level cut off by swarming worms, or step onto a false floor, or just get chased off the level by monsters converging on your unfortunately central starting position, all of those situations would be more frustrating for a smith than for any other character, on a level that has some sort of situationally high % chance of a forced forge. Whether by Derakon's suggestion of it being the first time at that depth, or by the current method of close to 5000 turns since the last forge had been generated.

Is it just me or is 4 forges per game way to few?

I would say so, but the flat % chance of a forge that I'm suggesting is better termed as a flat % chance of a "forced" forge. There would always be the normal chance (whatever that may be) for a level to contain a random forge.

[locus]

That wouldn't solve what I see as the fundamental problem, which is the artificial and frustration-inducing motivation to fully explore levels, which only smiths feel, of all character types.

Well, it would mean you'd only have to explore each depth once.

Is it just me or is 4 forges per game way to few?

[BlueFish]

Hacky solution: you can only find a forge on the first visit to a given depth. With 20% odds that means that on average you'd find 4 forges per game if you fully-explored each level on first visit.

That wouldn't solve what I see as the fundamental problem, which is the artificial and frustration-inducing motivation to fully explore levels, which only smiths feel, of all character types.

[BlueFish]

20% base probability for a forge = "unlimited" forges at 950 ft. if you scum. Doesn't affect you so much, but would be an awful change outside more or less ironman style play.

Try a wizard mode game and dive to 950... wizard mode command to fully map level is "w". You'll find that the probability of a forge on 900-950 levels is already about 20%. At least that's what I found. If there was an additional 20% to add a forge to a forgeless level, then the probability of a forge would be 35%, which doesn't seem like a game breaker to me. It takes a while to explore those levels after all.

[Derakon]

20% base probability for a forge = "unlimited" forges at 950 ft. if you scum. Doesn't affect you so much, but would be an awful change outside more or less ironman style play.

Hacky solution: you can only find a forge on the first visit to a given depth. With 20% odds that means that on average you'd find 4 forges per game if you fully-explored each level on first visit.

[taptap]

I suppose so. But it would be easy enough not to make them too common.

20% base probability for a forge = "unlimited" forges at 950 ft. if you scum. Doesn't affect you so much, but would be an awful change outside more or less ironman style play.

[BlueFish]

If forges are infinitely common, you can smith artifacts to go in all your slots after building a perfect set of forging gear. If they're rare, you have to decide how far to press your luck and prioritize your slots.

I suppose so. But it would be easy enough not to make them too common.

[locus]

If forges are infinitely common, you can smith artifacts to go in all your slots after building a perfect set of forging gear. If they're rare, you have to decide how far to press your luck and prioritize your slots.

[BlueFish]

I'm becoming more convinced that a memoryless system which give a flat percent chance for any level to contain a forge would be for the best.

The most important thing it alleviates is this artificial, gamey motivation smiths have to fully explore levels and to count turns since their last forge.

I wouldn't want forges to be too common, but even if they were, I don't see how that unbalances a lucky smith who gets a forge every level. You'd just end up skipping them anyway. A forge in itself does not add power to a character. You need something you want to smith, and you need to want to trade the turns for it.

The only reason I wouldn't want them to be too common is because I'd miss the excitement of finding a semi-rare thing. Also I suppose you wouldn't want enchanted forges to be too common, and their frequency would scale with overall forge frequency.

With the addition of chasms in 1.2, it makes that desire/need to fully explore levels even more potentially frustrating than it was before. No other character type has that need. I think it would be good to bring all character types in line for something that has an important effect on turn count and the frustration of being chased off levels or not being able to explore them due to obstacles.

I wish I could compile the code; I'd love to try this out for myself. Maybe starting with a flat 20% chance of a forced forge, each level. Combined of course with whatever normal random chance a level has for a forge. It would probably be for the best to make all forced forges normal rather than enchanted/unique. Maybe even force them to be 3 uses. Let only "random" forges be possibly enchanted and with random charges.