Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[wobbly]

That depends. If I'm going stealth early I'd take disguise or assassination straight a way. Song of elbereth is only 600 pts to take from the start & pretty much makes early orcs not a problem on an elf, if your taking it you may as well start with it. I've found on characters with low melee 1 melee+power to be better then 3. So yeah, depends but usually true.

[skadefryd]

Anyway, I'm sure an argument could be made that spending initial XP on skills rather than on ability points is often not a good idea. In the early game, what's better––a slightly higher crit rate or a +1 to hit? Extra perception or the ability to see invisible monsters? +1 evasion, or +3 evasion only when moving? And so on.

[taptap]

@lion: Cost is n*100 xp for the n-th skill point, cost for abilities is n*500 xp for the n-th ability of that skill-tree (modified by affinities for archery/smithing w/ feanor, archery/will w/ fingolfing, archery/perception w/ finarfin). I guess, how important these points are, is something one learns very fast.

[HallucinationMushroom]

It's all good! I had many misconceptions about how the game worked that I had to work through with forum and character questions... and I am still clueless about a fair number of mechanics. This just happened to be a question easy enough for me to field, haha .

[Lionmaruu]

I would like to see an option A as well, but the only points you have to spend or lose are your stat points str/dex/con/gra. You can elect to not distribute your 5000 xp and do it after the game starts.

oops
My bad! I only have started playing Sil a couple weeks ago and haven't played very much of it yet... Sorry.

Yes, you CAN do it after if you choose not to spend the points. It was my mistake for not realizing it. Thank you HallucinationMushroom, for pointing it out!

But (if I haven't missed any information on the start screens or tutorial) the game really doesn't inform you about it... Thinking about it now, it is like my option B(you can spent your xp after the start of the game in any way you like) it is just not very clear on this option.

Then I suggest a better explaining of the worth of the initial 5000xp points since its management is VERY important to a successful game (you buy skills, powers and use to enchant).

Also the TAB info when buying the points is still really handy on the beginning.


Oh and BTW, the PDF of the game manual is EXCELENT! Angband can only hope to have so great newbie help in one easy to ready/print spot. Also the very nice tutorial.

I only wanted it had the cost of the skills together with each description and the mention of the first 5000 points, maybe with examples of use.

[locus]

#2: I believe the ID system favors Perception in a way that unbalances builds a little (again, disclaimer for limited experience with the game). Not only is Perception already very useful for a handful of different things (and has very useful Abilities throughout), but the way you get 100 experience per item ID makes it hard to come up with an argument against picking Lore-Master every game. The ability itself, I'd argue, is invaluable and the experience investment will quickly pay for itself. Perhaps giving it diminishing returns like the way experience is earned for encountering and killing monsters might offset this a little or maybe moving it into Smithing, which would arguably still makes sense theme-wise.

Note that the 100 XP per item type is not a special bonus from Lore-master, it's the same XP you'd get from experimentation. If you're scrupulous about ID-ing items through experimentation, it doesn't give you much extra XP at all.

The benefits of lore-master are:
*You don't have to experiment with items, which is a hassle and occasionally dangerous
*You get +1 of each consumable because you don't have to sacrifice one to find out what it is
*Extra inventory space from not having to carry around unidentified items
*You can see if an item is worth fighting a dragon over before you actually fight the dragon
*Some items are impossible to ID through experimentation, like Amulet of Adornment and the Arrow Dailir.

[HallucinationMushroom]

b) Make a possibility that I can use my points after the beginning of the game.
I guess that for balancing purposes A is a better solution, in the end of avoid any inappropriate advantage B could give.

I would like to see an option A as well, but the only points you have to spend or lose are your stat points str/dex/con/gra. You can elect to not distribute your 5000 xp and do it after the game starts.

[Lionmaruu]

not really a "feature" as much as a "small hindsight" IMHO:

You have to choose the skill points (melee, archery...) at the character creation! BUT only after the start of the game you can actually SEE the goddamned screen and then, see what you can buy with the points you put on the skills.

I forgot how many characters I had to kill(suicide) just to see what each skill cost so I could make a balanced and informed choice.

so I really want to see is:

a) Make a possibility for me to press TAB and see the skills menu before spending my points

or

b) Make a possibility that I can use my points after the beginning of the game.


I guess that for balancing purposes A is a better solution, in the end of avoid any inappropriate advantage B could give.

[taptap]

You do realize that Lore-Master makes each perception ability you want on top of it 1000 xp more expensive? There are plenty of players, who agree with you on Lore-Master, but usually they don't bother with other perception abilities.

[intently]

#1: Having never been a fan of inventory systems in most RPGs, I'm usually quick to complain about them. ...

Amen. Obviously Sil inherited the inventory system from Angband, and Angband inherited its system from Rogue (or whatever), but the system is inelegant and annoying. I'm sure it was selected for ease of programming way back when, but it would be awesome if someone could conceive of a better inventory system. For every game ever.

#2: I believe the ID system favors Perception in a way that unbalances builds a little (again, disclaimer for limited experience with the game).

Yeah, Lore-master is too awesome. I'm not a fan of the ID-minigame in general though.

[one-eyed]

Greetings, everyone. First post here, so I'll preface it with two (perhaps way too long) introductory disclaimers, which you are free to skip.

#1: Concerning Roguelikes: I'm quite new to the genre, having only played a little of some of the commercial and less roguish ones. That said, Sil is my first roguelike proper and I haven't even finished it once. I'm currently reaching 500ft with consistency (always playing Noldor), but I've never got past 650ft yet.

#2: Concerning Tolkien: And here lies at least one of the reasons why Sil, of all other roguelikes, was my choice for getting into proper roguelikes. The Silmarillion is currently the last book I've read, but I'm still studying it. I'm currently reading the '07 publication of the Children of Húrin, but I've been trying to learn as much as possible about the First Age of Arda (and only after that will I read the Ring Trilogy).

@half: First of all, congratulations, for IMHO, your game is great. The mechanics are well thought out and the way you've handled the setting is nigh spotless, perhaps the major achievement of Sil. Besides that, I very much look up to the way you handle development and how you communicate in the forums.

Now here are some of my critiques of a game that I want to see become the best it can be. I very much trust that half will make the right calls on what to change, so here is just some feedback that may or may not help at all in the development of Sil (and that most likely has been brought up by someone else before).

#1: Having never been a fan of inventory systems in most RPGs, I'm usually quick to complain about them. The way light sources with different number of charges occupy individual slots seems like an interface consequence more than a conscious design decision and I'd argue the same in regards to potions and arrows (stacking up to 99). Although I do see the benefits of a inventory management system, I don't think the way potions, light sources and arrow stacks work right now is nowhere on par with the rest of the game.

#2: I believe the ID system favors Perception in a way that unbalances builds a little (again, disclaimer for limited experience with the game). Not only is Perception already very useful for a handful of different things (and has very useful Abilities throughout), but the way you get 100 experience per item ID makes it hard to come up with an argument against picking Lore-Master every game. The ability itself, I'd argue, is invaluable and the experience investment will quickly pay for itself. Perhaps giving it diminishing returns like the way experience is earned for encountering and killing monsters might offset this a little or maybe moving it into Smithing, which would arguably still makes sense theme-wise.

[HallucinationMushroom]

If it's a hot elf maiden I'm all for robes giving +1 grace.

[skadefryd]

Adding something like 1d1 protection makes more sense to me, personally––it's not redundant with a cloak, and it's easy to see how a thick robe might offer some padding against minor hits or scrapes.

[half]

While I prefer the current system and the way that the bonuses and penalties are simulationist (while still being simple and fun mechanically), I do see where intently is coming from. Sometimes two different ways of framing the exact same gameplay can have different fun levels. It can actually be easy to forget this as a game designer, so it is useful when people point it out.

I'm not averse to [+1] for robes. I suppose my only problem with it is that it is a bit odd to get a bonus if you are also wearing a cloak (which almost everyone is).

[wobbly]

I shouldn't have tried to recommend a "fix", but should instead have left my "least liked feature" to stand on its own

Nah, that would of been a shame. Maybe just ignore my comment, I think I was a little sleep deprived when I wrote that.

+1 on robes is kind of interesting, I don't think I've ever used them. Would make robes of permanence a little more enticing.