Sil 1.1

[half]

Thanks for the great detective work nryut and debo!

I think there are two bugs there. Firstly, I don't see any rationale behind that piece of code that enforces 'true rarity'. I've always interpreted the rarity numbers as being relative to each other, and having a cutoff at a total rarity of 1 is strange to me. So that has gone for 1.1.1.

The other problem was that not all item types that could be special have a depth zero option that is not worthless. I will fix this too. Dropping the earliest level at which free action can be encountered to zero does the job. I don't have a problem with anyone trying this in their own version -- it will simply mean that the plain greaves dropped by Balrogs become greaves of free action.

That said, during the discussion Scatha has come up with a new special footwear type that is undergoing testing...

[debo]

I've got interested in this issue of "underwhelming greaves," so I've done some investigation of my own, and it seems that it is not a bug after all.



Actually, in this case of yours it is caused by something else: there is a "minimal depth" restriction for both enchantments available for greaves. There will be no {special} greaves in monster drops until 250ft (minimal depth for "of Treacherous Paths" in special.txt.)

The actual issue is distinct from this and is caused by another piece of logic in make_ego_item(). If cumulative probability of all available enchantments is less than 100, then there is a chance for a given object to turn out non-{special}. Probability = 100 divided by rarity from special.txt.
For greaves, probability of "of Free Action" is 100/2 = 50, and probability of "of Treacherous Paths" is 100/3 = 33. Cumulative probability is 83%, so there is an almost 1-in-5 chance of getting a non-special greaves (and it is a 1-in-1 chance for before DL5, as I said.)

So this issue is not caused by a bug, but rather by the fact that there are so ridiculously few enchantments available for greaves. It will be "fixed" if just one another enchantment with rarity < 4 is added for greaves.
We could think up an enchantment that half would add in the next release. Shining Pants of Radiance is what I'm thinking.

Haha, I wish I had come here before investigating on my own and coming to the same conclusion

I learned a lot about item generation that surprised me, actually. One is that the value of a kind is generally weighted higher for heavier weapon/item types. (Not by code specifically, but by ordering / rating in objects.txt.) I should have figured this out just through gameplay, I suppose, but it never occurred to me.

It's interesting because I think the better enchantments can be found on boots, gloves, etc. I gave only a cursory glance at kind selection before heading over to make_ego_item, though, so it's very possible that I'm getting the gist wrong here.

I'd rather not see yet another protection enchantment added -- 1d2 greaves getting bumped to 1d3 by {of Protection} would annoy me just as much as vanilla 1d3 greaves. It would be cool to have 2d1 greaves

Even the artefact greaves (and gloves) aren't _that_ great. I might go so far as to suggest returning false for TV_BOOTS and TV_GLOVES from kind_is_great() altogether. Maybe that's too extreme.

(Also, who knew that Easterlings preferentially dropped torches?? I never noticed that.)

I think this bug went unnoticed for so long because there were fewer monsters that dropped exceptional items at DL < 15 (say). Now, with the Balrogs, it's eminently more noticeable.

[Scatha]

So I registered for this forum just to say that Sil has been a real pleasure.

I'm glad you're liking the game so much! Half and I have definitely enjoyed crafting the details over the past few years.

It sounds like you've had some exciting games -- good luck with your future endeavours to free a Silmaril.

[Scatha]

nryut: Thanks for the investigation! I would call that a bug, but that's just a matter of nomenclature.

Easiest solution would be to drop the rarities from 2 and 3 to 1 and 2 respectively.

Next easiest would be to add Protection as a special type on greaves. It's fairly generic as an enchantment so easily fades into the background, and would give more of a choice of special type to those liking heavy armour. That said there are lots of armour types with Protection already. Adding Stealth or Speed to greaves doesn't make so much flavour sense.

If we could get a good and natural new special type (with rarity no more than 6, I think?), that might ultimately be best, but I don't think it's necessarily worth it if we're not totally happy with it.

[nryut]

I've got interested in this issue of "underwhelming greaves," so I've done some investigation of my own, and it seems that it is not a bug after all.

OK, so I've definitely confirmed that it's happening.

Actually, in this case of yours it is caused by something else: there is a "minimal depth" restriction for both enchantments available for greaves. There will be no {special} greaves in monster drops until 250ft (minimal depth for "of Treacherous Paths" in special.txt.)

The actual issue is distinct from this and is caused by another piece of logic in make_ego_item(). If cumulative probability of all available enchantments is less than 100, then there is a chance for a given object to turn out non-{special}. Probability = 100 divided by rarity from special.txt.
For greaves, probability of "of Free Action" is 100/2 = 50, and probability of "of Treacherous Paths" is 100/3 = 33. Cumulative probability is 83%, so there is an almost 1-in-5 chance of getting a non-special greaves (and it is a 1-in-1 chance for before DL5, as I said.)

So this issue is not caused by a bug, but rather by the fact that there are so ridiculously few enchantments available for greaves. It will be "fixed" if just one another enchantment with rarity < 4 is added for greaves.
We could think up an enchantment that half would add in the next release. Shining Pants of Radiance is what I'm thinking.

[SalmonGod]

So I registered for this forum just to say that Sil has been a real pleasure. It's been my background activity to keep myself awake at my miserable job for the last couple weeks. I desperately want more roguelikes designed with such a sensibility.

I find the difficulty and complexity level to be perfect. It only took a couple days to become competent enough at the game to reach deep levels. I've had two characters reach Morgoth's throne room. One made off with a Silmaril up to 400 ft before he was cornered and clobbered like Fingolfin (fell in a pit and obliterated in one lucky blow).

I've loved roguelikes since I discovered Nethack when I was 9 years old (20 years ago), but I'm sick of the investment most require to really get into them. Sil let me dive right in, getting close to the endgame often enough to be constantly enticing, without making victory feel cheap or character-building too linear.

Looking forward to future developments.

[Fendell Orcbane]

Why doesn't loot stack in Sil. It sucks having to move chests around so that you don't lose the loot in said chest.

[debo]

OK, so I've definitely confirmed that it's happening. I basically went through monster.txt and gave every monster before level 5 DROP_3D2 | DROP_GREAT. I killed 4 wolves and, aside from LOLing when the ground was suddenly covered in stuff, I found 3 sets of ordinary greaves among all the other good loot.

For some reason it only seems to happen with greaves -- I have a couple of ideas why, but it's going to take a bit of tracing. Luckily, Sil built like a dream on my macbook. Oh, and half -- I know know exactly where you keep your Sil source on your hard drive lol

[half]

How open are you to patches? I'm getting pretty familiar with the codebase now. I could take a look.

Go for it. I inspect all patches and manually apply them to make sure they do what they say and that I'm familiar with the new coed. They thus aren't trivial to add, but for a fix like this that is already on the to-do list, it would be gratefully received. The best way to apply them is to just email the diff (and any explanation if needed) to me. Just use the name of the game @amirrorclear.net

I should add that if patched, it would appear in the next version (1.1.1) but that version release could well be a couple of months away. I'm happy for you to play with the fixed version in the meantime...

[Fendell Orcbane]

One of the things that I like about Sil is that characters don't need a lot of loot to be powerful...so while it sucks that a lot of drops are disappointing, we can still win. It just might take longer.

[debo]

It is definitely supposed to mean 'fine' and 'special', while good means 'fine' or special'. I think there are a few other items added in for good, such as miruvor, but I can't recall off-hand. The greaves are definitely a bug, but I haven't tracked it down and fixed it yet (and can't imagine it will get fixed for a couple of months). Sorry about that. There are only a few things that this affects -- notably Balrogs.

How open are you to patches? I'm getting pretty familiar with the codebase now. I could take a look.

[half]

This happens to me often as well -- I always assumed "exceptional" meant "potentially exceptional" lol

It is definitely supposed to mean 'fine' and 'special', while good means 'fine' or special'. I think there are a few other items added in for good, such as miruvor, but I can't recall off-hand. The greaves are definitely a bug, but I haven't tracked it down and fixed it yet (and can't imagine it will get fixed for a couple of months). Sorry about that. There are only a few things that this affects -- notably Balrogs.

[debo]

Also just killed Othrod, who has supposedly exceptional drop - and he dropped a single pair of [0,1d2] greaves. What is it with me, uniques and underwhelming greaves?

This happens to me often as well -- I always assumed "exceptional" meant "potentially exceptional" lol

[Scatha]

Does that mean that poison arrows with flaming arrows gives 2 extra dice? Similarly if I dual-branded a weapon would I get two extra dice?

Yes and yes. However dual-branding weapons is artificially expensive, which was added in for two reasons:
(a) Branding was undercosted
(b) It's a little bit silly

We've removed (a), but (b) still holds. I don't think we want to worry about whether this is correct until we bring in the new elemental branding system.

[Psi]

Also just killed Othrod, who has supposedly exceptional drop - and he dropped a single pair of [0,1d2] greaves. What is it with me, uniques and underwhelming greaves?