Mr. decoy goes to Nogrod (Sil AAR/strategy talk)

[decoy]

I won't post a character unless they make it past 600' or so.

In truth, looking at the present ladder and given that I already have some winners, I have decided that I'm not even going to bother posting anything to the ladder unless I make it to the Throne Room. With the present ladder pushing 350, why bother? Why fill the ladder with "Guess what, guys, I died again" posts (BTW, I die a lot)? Hence the reason I posted my dumps here but not on the ladder itself. If I make it to the Throne Room, that's my personal minimum for the actual ladder at the moment. Unless, I guess, something particularly interesting or noteworthy happens. So yeah, I think there is substantial sampling bias in the ladder.

The early game will eventually become low on challenge (due to practice); the late game inherently has strong novelty (because the player sees it less often).

I really appreciate the depth of your post and I think it contains a lot of interesting material, much of which I tend to agree with. I think, though, that there are simply so many workable permutations in Sil that it would take a long, long time to exhaust the novelty aspect. Even with a particular starting setup, each game can be vastly different. A difference of a point here or a point there in stats can have MAJOR unanticipated effects.

My own experience is a perfect case in point here: I am happy to have three characters in the green at the moment, and one nearly there dead by my own stupidity. Ostensibly, all of them except my first ever are nearly the same build (pure stealth/song explorer build), and they represent three of the four available races.

I will be the first to admit that despite the similarities, each of them played vastly differently because of different stats, skills, starting abilities, etc. The general idea was the same, but the specifics were totally different.

None of them were combat builds, and only two of them (one of them the dead one) engaged in anything resembling combat. Now, with this character, I am going with a pure combat/smithing build which nonetheless plays completely differently from a Noldor character of ostensibly similar design. With my latest iteration I realized that it's like playing a totally different game.

Given all of the different possible permutations (most of which I have yet to discover), I find it hard to believe that the novelty in Sil will be exhausted by most players any time soon. A single lucky find at the initial levels can completely alter the course of a game.

[Fendell Orcbane]

I have been keeping a vague eye on deaths by depth on the ladder. There are a couple of issues here: more characters see the earlier depths, but on the other hand they are more likely to be posted if they get deeper. Below 300', there's a surprising consistency of reported deaths at each depth. For a while there weren't any deaths reported at 850 or 900', which made me suspect something was up (perhaps a particularly dangerous area at 750-800ft such that characters who survived that tended to be strong ones), but this effect has mostly disappeared so I think our sample size was just too small. Interestingly 750' is currently under-represented. The throne room is more dangerous than normal, but I think that's good.

All that said, I think it very likely that for many particular character builds and playstyles there are markedly dangerous zones. But as they don't seem to be clumping too much across total characters, I'm not sure there's an issue here. Still, I have almost no more data than you (as the number of games since release is much larger than the playtesting ones before hand), so if you think you can produce some interesting analysis then please go for it -- and if there are demonstrable trends we'd be delighted to take them into account when thinking about balancing.

I won't post a character unless they make it past 600' or so. What I have found is that once I have Exchange and Vanish, I can pretty much make it to the Throne room. Hell I've even holed up and healed in the Throne Room with Vanish. I also usually have Sprinting so that if I can't run faster than Cats, I will at least be able to get far enough away so that they lose me.
After I escape the Throne Room life is actually easy...I can kill anything that spots me or run away from it. I would say that for myself the danger level goes down after the Throne Room. BUt then again I have only used Stealth builds.

[Derakon]

Thinking about likelihood of death as a function of depth reminds me of Super Meat Boy. If you haven't played it, it's a platforming game with very short levels; typically you could think of a level having at most 10 obstacles that would need to be dodged/navigated past/ridden/etc. It's a very long level that takes even 30 seconds to beat. It's also a very hard game, though, so your actual time spent trying to beat each level is significantly longer. Moreover, when you beat a level, you get a replay that shows all of your attempts playing out simultaneously, which gives you a good idea of where most of your corpses ended up.

So I found myself thinking "Okay, my odds of passing obstacle 1 are 90% now, but my odds of passing obstacle 2 are only 50% (it's really tricky). Having passed #2, I'd say my odds of making it to the obstacle that consistently kills me are probably 66%. So how hard should that obstacle be to be fair?" Of course the numbers here are made up, but they aren't that unrealistic, and the upshot is that I'd have only a .15% chance of making it to the part that's actually still "giving me trouble" and thus presents the most interesting challenge. Most of my time on any given level is thus spent replaying sections that I'd already "solved". Fortunately the replaying was brief because the levels as a whole were brief.

Sil may be much shorter and harder than Angband, but it nonetheless has a much bigger time commitment and lower instantaneous challenge level than one level of Super Meat Boy does (of course, the type of challenge is also completely different). But I think a similar thought process applies here.

1) The difficulty of beating the game can be roughly described as the product of the difficulty of passing each section.
2) Any given experienced player will have far more practice passing the early sections than the late ones, because the early ones must be passed before the late ones can be attempted. They won't have a 100% success rate but their rate will be much higher than that of a newbie.
3) Interest in a game depends roughly on challenge and novelty. You need a minimum level of challenge to keep the player from zoning out; a minimum level of novelty to keep them from getting bored.
4) The early game will eventually become low on challenge (due to practice); the late game inherently has strong novelty (because the player sees it less often).
5) Ramping up the early difficulty to keep veterans interested early on risks alienating newbies (though you may not care). Ramping up the late game difficulty serves relatively little point so long as a base level of challenge is maintained to keep the player interested.
6) Adding novelty requires significant dev effort.

I don't have any answers for you (I'm avoiding playing Sil for now because I don't want to get distracted from other things), but I thought perhaps this perspective would be interesting. Vanilla of course "solves" the early game issue by making it flyover territory -- an experienced player can basically skip it while freefalling through the dungeon. This does kind of work, but it's not without flaws. Meanwhile, the lategame isn't a walk in the park, but it's also typically not as prone to wild swings as the early game is -- the player has multiple contingencies and far more control of the situation in the late game than they do in the early game. Again, mostly works, not without flaws.

[decoy]

I have been keeping a vague eye on deaths by depth on the ladder. There are a couple of issues here: more characters see the earlier depths, but on the other hand they are more likely to be posted if they get deeper. Below 300', there's a surprising consistency of reported deaths at each depth. For a while there weren't any deaths reported at 850 or 900', which made me suspect something was up (perhaps a particularly dangerous area at 750-800ft such that characters who survived that tended to be strong ones), but this effect has mostly disappeared so I think our sample size was just too small. Interestingly 750' is currently under-represented. The throne room is more dangerous than normal, but I think that's good.

Yeah, I think the ladder has some pretty serious sampling issues, though. Reporting bias, as you say.

Also, is it necessarily bad if there are (possibly) fewer deaths at the lower levels? You guys worked hard creating the game, and people spent a lot of time playing it if they're running around at 850'-950'. Given that the game is on a timer, it seems reasonable to give players a bit of time to enjoy the powerful character they've built.

All that said, I think it very likely that for many particular character builds and playstyles there are markedly dangerous zones. But as they don't seem to be clumping too much across total characters, I'm not sure there's an issue here. Still, I have almost no more data than you (as the number of games since release is much larger than the playtesting ones before hand), so if you think you can produce some interesting analysis then please go for it -- and if there are demonstrable trends we'd be delighted to take them into account when thinking about balancing.

I suspect you are right here. For example, for me, the stealth game is easier once I have some key abilities, but down at 700'-750' depth one is still vulnerable to getting surrounded in hallways by fast-movers such as Greater Werewolves and Raukar (even if one has Exchange Places, as they hit hard and travel in packs). But if I can live past that, I can basically "complete" the build by upgrading Song to Throne Room levels, enabling me to make them snooze. Ergo, for that build and my style, 700'-750' is probably just a natural confluence of amount of experience available (which is just pretty straightforward arithmetic) and necessary attributes.

Similarly, it's possible that my death spots for this build are 350', 450'-550', and 750', but I don't know if 750' is a fluke or not. I had several tight squeezes at shallower depths. Certainly without Free Action, See Invisible, and resistance to Fear/Blindness (well, okay, the Lantern of True Sight would help with two of those) life might have gotten very interesting lower down. Still, the build was almost complete. Time will tell, I suppose.

[half]

There is an interesting question for permadeath games of what the probability of death at each depth should look like as the depth increases. Should it be constant? Increasing? Decreasing? I'm not sure, but it probably should be roughly monotonic and continuous (with a possible exception at the deepest level, and in Sil, at the Gates).

I'm also unsure whether probability of death at a given depth is the right variable, as opposed to probability of death per turn at different depths. Sil allows more time at each level as you descend if you go at the minimum pace and I think many people thus spend more turns on the deeper levels.

[Scatha]

I don't know if you keep stats on your testing deaths, but with my stealth builds I found that 750' was a "critical depth" where I lost a lot of characters. I don't think I kept track of how many, but by contrast, if I could live through the 700'-750' range fairly comfortably I don't think I lost many after that. This is the deepest I've ever been with this build, so my sample size is 1 in this case. If I graphed "number of deaths per floor" normalized by the number of characters I got to that floor, I think it would show some particularly dangerous zones, including 700'-750'. (Can you tell I'm a scientist by trade?)

I have been keeping a vague eye on deaths by depth on the ladder. There are a couple of issues here: more characters see the earlier depths, but on the other hand they are more likely to be posted if they get deeper. Below 300', there's a surprising consistency of reported deaths at each depth. For a while there weren't any deaths reported at 850 or 900', which made me suspect something was up (perhaps a particularly dangerous area at 750-800ft such that characters who survived that tended to be strong ones), but this effect has mostly disappeared so I think our sample size was just too small. Interestingly 750' is currently under-represented. The throne room is more dangerous than normal, but I think that's good.

All that said, I think it very likely that for many particular character builds and playstyles there are markedly dangerous zones. But as they don't seem to be clumping too much across total characters, I'm not sure there's an issue here. Still, I have almost no more data than you (as the number of games since release is much larger than the playtesting ones before hand), so if you think you can produce some interesting analysis then please go for it -- and if there are demonstrable trends we'd be delighted to take them into account when thinking about balancing.

[decoy]

Yes, blocking only works when you pass your turn (z or 5). Without combination with other abilities it is almost useless (though not always useless!).

Hey, I'm not above standing behind a shieldwall regenning health.

It is best used in combination with a kite shield and some other abilities. An additional 1d6 protection is quite amazing, and possibly worth the same as one or two points of Con. The thing is that you need to be doing something useful with the turn, such as focusing for an attack, singing, riposting, dominating your zone of control etc. It is, of course, also useful as a pre-req for the fantastic Heavy Armour Use.

Righto. So if you want to hunker down and play "defensive offense" it's a good way to go. I must admit, I think I prefer flanking. Thanks for the suggestion!

A higher Will would help (it is not impossible to get Will 20 or so, but rarely worth it in my view). Free action, like all such abilities in Sil gives a +10 to the skill check, guaranteeing you safety in this case.

Yeah, Will that high seems to be a luxury with points best spent elsewhere. But Free Action was a stupid omission on my part.

My advice is that if you don't have Will that high, you should immediately run from foes like that spider. Luckily for you, they are territorial and don't chase you. The same is true for dragons and some other creatures. We are prepared to make monsters pretty deadly if they are territorial, as you can generally choose not to fight them if you wish.

Seems like a fair enough approach to me. Cuz like, dragons and other assorted Servants of Morgoth are deadly and stuff. I think you have ruined Vanilla Angband for me forever, by the way. Every time I try to go back to it I get bored after 100 turns or something.

Sorry about the one turn death though!

No worries! It happens.

I don't know if you keep stats on your testing deaths, but with my stealth builds I found that 750' was a "critical depth" where I lost a lot of characters. I don't think I kept track of how many, but by contrast, if I could live through the 700'-750' range fairly comfortably I don't think I lost many after that. This is the deepest I've ever been with this build, so my sample size is 1 in this case. If I graphed "number of deaths per floor" normalized by the number of characters I got to that floor, I think it would show some particularly dangerous zones, including 700'-750'. (Can you tell I'm a scientist by trade?)

Danger in this case probably made the problem worse, but I could not leave such an awesome sword behind. It definitely helped me lay the beatdown on some beasties.

I can also see now why you dual-wielded the meteoric blades. You should have taken Parry...+9 defense (rather than +6) and +6 offense at the expense of 1d6 protection and I think a -1 to offense? I'd probably take that action.

[half]

Which brings up a question: What is the defense against entrancement?

Entrancement is an opposed Will check, thus it depends on the Will of the monster, which is typically higher at deeper levels. A Spider of Gorgoroth has Will 11 and you have Will 12. Since it is acting, it needs to beat your score on 1d10 + 11 vs your 1d10 + 12. It thus has a pretty good chance of entrancing you if it hits and does net damage. A higher Will would help (it is not impossible to get Will 20 or so, but rarely worth it in my view). Free action, like all such abilities in Sil gives a +10 to the skill check, guaranteeing you safety in this case.

My advice is that if you don't have Will that high, you should immediately run from foes like that spider. Luckily for you, they are territorial and don't chase you. The same is true for dragons and some other creatures. We are prepared to make monsters pretty deadly if they are territorial, as you can generally choose not to fight them if you wish.

Sorry about the one turn death though!

[half]

So, question for you: Blocking. It only works if you wait, not if you're just standing there hacking away? That's why I don't take blocking, because if I can't hit back then I make no progress...

Yes, blocking only works when you pass your turn (z or 5). Without combination with other abilities it is almost useless (though not always useless!). It is best used in combination with a kite shield and some other abilities. An additional 1d6 protection is quite amazing, and possibly worth the same as one or two points of Con. The thing is that you need to be doing something useful with the turn, such as focusing for an attack, singing, riposting, dominating your zone of control etc. It is, of course, also useful as a pre-req for the fantastic Heavy Armour Use.

[decoy]

...Well, ol' Dendor the 119th had a good run of it. Entranced and killed by a Spider of Morgoth at 750'. Basically he got one-shotted which was, I have to say, a little disappointing.

Which brings up a question: What is the defense against entrancement?

I thought having a sweet Will would be good enough but it seems that this was not the case. Same question for confusion-inducing and stat-reducing molds and insects in the shallow depths. Was my Will just not high enough? Is there a special resistance that I just forgot about? (Free action?)

A couple of the "tight spots" in the notes definitely would not have worked out without flanking. I'm going to hopefully work up to Knock Back, Whirlwind Attack, and maybe Opportunist when I get the chance. We shall see.

Next time, perhaps.

  [Sil 1.0.2 Character Dump]

 Name   Dendor        Age       71       Str   3 =  2  +1
 Sex    Male          Height   4'5       Dex   3
 Race   Naugrim       Weight   157       Con   5 =  4  +1
 House  Nogrod                           Gra   3

 Game Turn   19,539   Melee  (+18,3d7)   Melee       18 = 10  +3  +5
 Exp Pool     4,236   Bows   (+4,1d12)   Archery      4 =  0  +3  +2  -1
 Total Exp   47,836   Armor  [-5,7-17]   Evasion     -5 = 11  +3  -2 -17
 Burden       120.4                      Stealth      0 =  1  +3  -4
 Max Burden   172.8   Health     -3:49   Perception  10 =  7  +3
 Depth         750'   Voice      34:34   Will        12 =  9  +3
 Min Depth     750'                      Smithing    17 = 12  +3      +2
 Light Radius     5                      Song         5 =  2  +3

 You are one of two children of a Dwarven Warrior. You are the black
 sheep of the family. You have dark brown eyes, straight brown hair, a
 three foot beard, and a dark complexion.





  [Last Messages]

> The Cave troll misses you.
> You hit the Cave troll.
> The Cave troll misses you.
> You miss the Cave troll.
> The Cave troll hits you.
> You hit the Cave troll.
> You have slain the Cave troll.
> You see an Adamant Ring of Sustenance.
> You were wielding The Battle Axe of Tumunzahar (-3,3d4) (r).
> You are wielding The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel' (+3,3d3) [+1] (a).
> You miss the Spider of Gorgoroth.
> The Spider of Gorgoroth bites you.
> You fall into a deep trance!
> The Spider of Gorgoroth bites you!!
> You die.


  [Screenshot]

  ....#  
  ....#  
  .=..###
  ...@#  
  ...M.  
  #####. 
        .


  [Equipment]

a) The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel' (+3,3d3) [+1] 5.0 lb
   It cuts easily through armour.  It draws powerful creatures
   to your level (even when not worn).  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  It does extra damage when wielded with both
   hands.  
b) a Longbow of Himring (+0,1d10) [-1] 2.5 lb
   It slays orcs and trolls.  It can shoot arrows 18 squares
   (with your current strength).
c) a Golden Ring of Accuracy (+2)
d) a Golden Ring of Accuracy (+2)
e) a Bronze Amulet of Preservation
   It sustains your constitution and grace.  It reduces your
   need for food.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
f) a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
g) a Mail Corslet of Resilience (-1) [-3,2d4] <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  
h) The Cloak of Comfort [+1]
   It provides resistance to cold and fire.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  
i) a Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d3]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]
   It provides resistance to fire.  It lights the dungeon around
   you.  
k) a Set of Gauntlets of Power (-1) [+0,1d1] <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  
l) a Pair of Leather Boots of Speed [+0,1d1]
   It grants you the ability: Sprinting.  
m) 99 Arrows
   They can be shot 18 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 25 Arrows (Poisoned)
   They are branded with venom.  They can be shot 18 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 4 Pale Herbs of Sustenance
b) 2 Russet Herbs of Restoration
c) 3 Black Potions of Voice
d) 3 Golden Potions of True Sight
e) 2 Grey Potions of Slow Poison
f) 3 Yellow Potions of Quickness
g) 2 Cloudy Potions of Strength
h) 4 Brilliant Blue Potions of Dexterity
i) 6 Sparkling Blue Potions of Constitution
j) 2 Emerald Potions of Grace
k) a Brass Trumpet of Blasting
l) an Elm Staff of Revelations (4 charges)
m) a Jade Ring of Damage <+1>
   It improves your damage sides by 1.  
n) a Crystal Amulet of Grace <+1>
   It increases your grace by 1.  It sustains your grace.  
o) a Brass Lantern of Brightness (with 6956 turns of light)
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
p) a Set of Leather Gloves of the Forge <+2>
   It improves your smithing by 2.  
q) The Shortsword of Amrod (+1,1d7) [+1] <+2> 1.5 lb
   It improves your stealth and perception by 2.  It grants you 
   freedom of movement.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
r) The Battle Axe of Tumunzahar (-3,3d4) 4.9 lb
   It slays dragons.  It cuts easily through armour.  It cannot
   be harmed by the elements.  It does extra damage when wielded
   with both hands.  
s) a Battle Axe (-3,3d5) 4.7 lb
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
t) The War Hammer of Aule's Servant (-2,4d1) <+3> 4.2 lb
   It decreases your dexterity by 3.  It improves your smithing
   by 3.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It grants you
   the ability: Masterpiece.  It does extra damage when wielded
   with both hands.  
u) a Shovel (-3,2d2) <+1> 6.1 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 1.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  
v) 71 Pieces of Mithril


  [Notes]

Dendor of the Naugrim
Entered Angband on 15 Apr 2012

    Turn     Depth    Note

      89     50 ft    (Charge)
     874    100 ft    Forge #1, 3 uses.
     877    100 ft    (Armoursmith)
     877    100 ft    (Enchantment)
   2,367    200 ft    Forge #2, only 2 uses but it will do.
   2,634    200 ft    This forge is a battleground.
   2,634    200 ft    (Jeweller)
   3,222    250 ft    Slew Gorgol, the Butcher
   3,447    250 ft    Lucky turnaround against orc mob.
   3,471    250 ft    More luck! Forge #3, 4 uses.
   4,007    250 ft    Nicely kitted now, but need stat potions.
   4,394    250 ft    Lembas! Lucky find again!
   4,613    300 ft    (Song of Elbereth)
   5,062    300 ft    (Lore-Keeper)
   5,957    350 ft    Hmm. Big greeting committee.
   6,090    350 ft    Laying low to regen. Easterling archers.
   6,879    450 ft    Down shaft, here's hoping.
   6,879    450 ft    (Lore-Master)
   6,890    450 ft    (Dodging)
   6,890    450 ft    (Flanking)
   7,017    450 ft    Yup, okay, flanking is brutal.
   7,029    500 ft    False floor.
   7,118    500 ft    Uldor...Potion of Strength down the hatch.
   7,137    500 ft    Slew Uldor, the Accursed
   8,216    400 ft    (Hardiness)
   8,464    400 ft    Now we're cooking with naphtha.
   8,709    400 ft    Slew Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
   8,958    500 ft    Herb of Restoration! Stats are back.
   8,976    500 ft    (Poison Resistance)
   8,976    500 ft    (Clarity)
   9,575    500 ft    (Power)
  10,393    550 ft    Forge #4, 2 uses...
  10,400    550 ft    (Artifice)
  10,592    550 ft    Slew Othrond, the Orc Lord
  10,825    550 ft    A better forge, 4 uses.
  11,616    550 ft    Slew Ulfang the Black
  12,456    550 ft    Made The Cloak of Comfort
  13,005    600 ft    Found The Shortsword of Amrod
  13,037    600 ft    (Crowd Fighting)
  13,054    600 ft    In a very tight spot...
  13,141    600 ft    Slew Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
  14,352    600 ft    Forge #6: 4 uses. What to do?
  14,361    600 ft    (Weaponsmith)
  15,450    600 ft    Made The Battle Axe of Tumunzahar
  15,573    650 ft    Whoops, forgot to use the 4th charge on the forge...
  15,814    650 ft    Forge #7, 3 uses.
  16,382    650 ft    Tight spot...Cat warriors, brutal.
  16,494    650 ft    Tough to take the heat, might have to go back up.
  17,249    650 ft    Made The War Hammer of Aule's Servant
  18,334    700 ft    (Critical Resistance)
  19,022    700 ft    Found The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel'
  19,042    700 ft    Staff of Revelations, too. Good times.
  19,330    750 ft    Had to bail upstairs twice...
  19,393    750 ft    Intense here...No healing left.

  19,539    750 ft    Slain by a Spider of Gorgoroth.
  19,539    750 ft    Died on 16 April 2012.




  ['Score' 015080461]

[decoy]

Got a good thing going here. And so I ask the Master Smiths--if you had a 4-use forge, what would you do in this situation? I can make an artifact of some kind, but I'm just not sure if my smithing is high enough to make it worthwhile. I was considering a Mithril Shield of resist blindness and see invisible...?

P.S. half--holy smokes, flanking is awesome. I now see why people like this "fighting" game.

P.P.S. Oh, the dump says I found the Short Sword of Amrod...Better go and fetch that.

  [Sil 1.0.2 Character Dump]

 Name   Dendor        Age       71       Str   3 =  2  +1
 Sex    Male          Height   4'5       Dex   3
 Race   Naugrim       Weight   157       Con   5 =  4  +1
 House  Nogrod                           Gra   3

 Game Turn   14,349   Melee  (+11,3d9)   Melee       11 =  8  +3  -1  +1
 Exp Pool     2,067   Bows    (+4,1d8)   Archery      4 =  0  +3  +2  -1
 Total Exp   37,767   Armor [+12,7-16]   Evasion     12 = 11  +3  -2
 Burden       108.2                      Stealth      0 =  1  +3  -4
 Max Burden   172.8   Health     49:49   Perception  10 =  7  +3
 Depth         600'   Voice      34:34   Will        10 =  7  +3
 Min Depth     600'                      Smithing    17 = 12  +3      +2
 Light Radius     5                      Song         5 =  2  +3

 You are one of two children of a Dwarven Warrior. You are the black
 sheep of the family. You have dark brown eyes, straight brown hair, a
 three foot beard, and a dark complexion.





  [Equipment]

a) a Battle Axe (-3,3d5) 4.7 lb
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
b) a Shortbow (+0,1d7) 1.7 lb
   It can shoot arrows 12 squares (with your current strength).
c) a Golden Ring of Accuracy (+2)
d) a Golden Ring of Accuracy (+2)
e) a Bronze Amulet of Preservation
   It sustains your constitution and grace.  It reduces your
   need for food.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
f) a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
g) a Mail Corslet of Resilience (-1) [-3,2d4] <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  
h) The Cloak of Comfort [+1]
   It provides resistance to cold and fire.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  
i) a Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d3]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]
   It provides resistance to fire.  It lights the dungeon around
   you.  
k) a Set of Gauntlets of Power (-1) [+0,1d1] <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  
l) a Pair of Leather Boots of Speed [+0,1d1]
   It grants you the ability: Sprinting.  
m) 87 Arrows
   They can be shot 12 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 25 Arrows (Poisoned)
   They are branded with venom.  They can be shot 12 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 2 Pale Herbs of Sustenance
b) 3 Grey Herbs of Healing
c) 3 Russet Herbs of Restoration
d) 2 Sparkling Potions of Clarity
e) a Sky Blue Potion of Healing
f) a Black Potion of Voice
g) 2 Golden Potions of True Sight
h) 4 Grey Potions of Slow Poison
i) 3 Yellow Potions of Quickness
j) 2 Cloudy Potions of Strength
k) 2 Brilliant Blue Potions of Dexterity
l) 7 Sparkling Blue Potions of Constitution
m) an Emerald Potion of Grace
n) a Brass Trumpet of Blasting
o) a Crystal Amulet of Grace <+1>
   It increases your grace by 1.  It sustains your grace.  
p) a Brass Lantern of Brightness (with 4921 turns of light)
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
q) a Set of Leather Gloves of the Forge <+2>
   It improves your smithing by 2.  
r) The Shortsword of Amrod (+1,1d7) [+1] <+2> 1.5 lb
   It improves your stealth and perception by 2.  It grants you 
   freedom of movement.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
s) a Longsword of Final Rest (+0,2d5) [+1] 3.1 lb
   It slays undead.  
t) a Longsword of Wolf Slaying (+0,2d5) [+1] 3.2 lb
   It slays wolves.  
u) a Shovel (-3,2d2) <+1> 6.1 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 1.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  
v) a Longbow of Himring (+0,1d10) [-1] 2.5 lb
   It slays orcs and trolls.  It can shoot arrows 18 squares
   (with your current strength).
w) 71 Pieces of Mithril


  [Notes]

Dendor of the Naugrim
Entered Angband on 15 Apr 2012

    Turn     Depth    Note

      89     50 ft    (Charge)
     874    100 ft    Forge #1, 3 uses.
     877    100 ft    (Armoursmith)
     877    100 ft    (Enchantment)
   2,367    200 ft    Forge #2, only 2 uses but it will do.
   2,634    200 ft    This forge is a battleground.
   2,634    200 ft    (Jeweller)
   3,222    250 ft    Slew Gorgol, the Butcher
   3,447    250 ft    Lucky turnaround against orc mob.
   3,471    250 ft    More luck! Forge #3, 4 uses.
   4,007    250 ft    Nicely kitted now, but need stat potions.
   4,394    250 ft    Lembas! Lucky find again!
   4,613    300 ft    (Song of Elbereth)
   5,062    300 ft    (Lore-Keeper)
   5,957    350 ft    Hmm. Big greeting committee.
   6,090    350 ft    Laying low to regen. Easterling archers.
   6,879    450 ft    Down shaft, here's hoping.
   6,879    450 ft    (Lore-Master)
   6,890    450 ft    (Dodging)
   6,890    450 ft    (Flanking)
   7,017    450 ft    Yup, okay, flanking is brutal.
   7,029    500 ft    False floor.
   7,118    500 ft    Uldor...Potion of Strength down the hatch.
   7,137    500 ft    Slew Uldor, the Accursed
   8,216    400 ft    (Hardiness)
   8,464    400 ft    Now we're cooking with naphtha.
   8,709    400 ft    Slew Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
   8,958    500 ft    Herb of Restoration! Stats are back.
   8,976    500 ft    (Poison Resistance)
   8,976    500 ft    (Clarity)
   9,575    500 ft    (Power)
  10,393    550 ft    Forge #4, 2 uses...
  10,400    550 ft    (Artifice)
  10,592    550 ft    Slew Othrond, the Orc Lord
  10,825    550 ft    A better forge, 4 uses.
  11,616    550 ft    Slew Ulfang the Black
  12,456    550 ft    Made The Cloak of Comfort
  13,005    600 ft    Found The Shortsword of Amrod
  13,037    600 ft    (Crowd Fighting)
  13,054    600 ft    In a very tight spot...
  13,141    600 ft    Slew Gilim, the Giant of Eruman



  ['Score' 012085651]

[decoy]

Here's my latest, which was actually working quite well up until the point where I got surrounded by werewolves and wargs. Poison is a quick end when you're out of drinkables.

I was actually going to try out flanking, until everything went to hell. I was also looking forward to finding another forge and making use of my sweet stat potions. Ah well!

  [Sil 1.0.2 Character Dump]

 Name   Dendor        Age       71       Str   2
 Sex    Male          Height   4'5       Dex   3
 Race   Naugrim       Weight   157       Con   7 =  4  +1  -1  +3
 House  Nogrod                           Gra   3

 Game Turn    9,452   Melee   (+8,3d7)   Melee        8 =  9  +3  -5  +1
 Exp Pool       785   Bows    (+0,1d9)   Archery      0 =  0  +3  -2  -1
 Total Exp   22,685   Armor  [+9,8-18]   Evasion      9 =  8  +3  -2
 Burden        98.2                      Stealth     -1 =  0  +3  -4
 Max Burden   144.0   Health      0:71   Perception  11 =  7  +3  +1
 Depth         550'   Voice      34:34   Will        11 =  7  +3  +1
 Min Depth     400'                      Smithing    11 =  6  +3      +2
 Light Radius     3                      Song         5 =  2  +3

 You are one of two children of a Dwarven Warrior. You are the black
 sheep of the family. You have dark brown eyes, straight brown hair, a
 three foot beard, and a dark complexion.





  [Last Messages]

> The Werewolf misses you.
> You miss it.
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The Sulrauko misses you.
> You miss it.
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You miss the Sulrauko.
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The Werewolf claws you...
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The Warg bites you...
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You do not have enough experience to acquire this ability.
> You hit the Warg.
> You die.


  [Screenshot]

    #C#  
    #C#  
    #C#  
    #@#  
    #C#  
  ###R#  
  ..IR#  


  [Equipment]

a) a Battle Axe (-3,3d5) 5.6 lb
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
b) a Shortbow (+0,1d7) 2.0 lb
   It can shoot arrows 13 squares (with your current strength).
c) a Garnet Ring of Perception <+1>
   It improves your perception by 1.  
d) a Jade Ring of Free Action
   It grants you freedom of movement.  
e) (nothing)
f) a Feanorian Lamp
g) a Mail Corslet of Resilience (-1) [-3,2d4] <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  
h) a Cloak of Protection [+1,1d1]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) a Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d3]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Dwarf Mask of Defiance [-2,1d2] <+1>
   It improves your will by 1.  It provides resistance to fire 
   and fear.  
k) a Set of Gauntlets (-1) [+0,1d2]
l) a Pair of Leather Boots of Speed [+0,1d1]
   It grants you the ability: Sprinting.  
m) 12 Arrows (Poisoned)
   They are branded with venom.  They can be shot 13 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).
n) 20 Arrows (+3)
   They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 4 Pale Green Herbs of Rage
b) 2 Mottled Herbs of Sustenance
c) 5 Wrinkled Herbs of Terror
d) a Piece of Dark Bread
e) 2 Copper Speckled Potions of Clarity
f) a Bright Orange Potion of True Sight
g) a Dark Blue Potion of Strength
h) a Golden Potion of Dexterity
i) a Silver Staff of Light (6 charges)
j) a Willow Staff of Recharging (6 charges)
k) a Moonstone Ring of Frost
   It provides resistance to fire.  
l) a Brass Lantern of True Sight (with 4610 turns of light)
   It provides resistance to blindness and hallucination.  It
   grants you the ability to see invisible creatures.  
m) a Set of Leather Gloves of the Forge <+2>
   It improves your smithing by 2.  
n) a Curved Sword (-1,2d5) [+1] 4.2 lb
o) a Bastard Sword (-2,3d3) [+1] 2.9 lb
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
p) a Greatsword of Spider Slaying (-2,3d5) [+1] 7.1 lb
   It slays spiders.  It requires both hands to wield it
   properly.  
q) a Greatsword (Defender) (-2,3d5) [+2] 7.3 lb
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It requires both hands
   to wield it properly.  
r) a Battle Axe (-3,3d4) 3.3 lb
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  


  [Notes]

Dendor of the Naugrim
Entered Angband on 15 Apr 2012

    Turn     Depth    Note

     224     50 ft    (Charge)
   1,171    100 ft    (Armoursmith)
   1,171    100 ft    (Enchantment)
   2,864    200 ft    (Lore-Keeper)
   3,735    250 ft    Slew Gorgol, the Butcher
   4,004    250 ft    Forge #2, 3 uses.
   4,256    250 ft    (Jeweller)
   6,182    400 ft    (Lore-Master)
   6,188    400 ft    (Song of Elbereth)
   6,684    400 ft    Boldog fled, how sad.
   6,729    400 ft    Feanorian lamp--major find.
   6,996    400 ft    (Hardiness)
   8,407    400 ft    (Crowd Fighting)
   8,499    450 ft    Whew, happy to have gotten off of that last floor.
   8,815    550 ft    Had to run from the last level as well.
   9,071    550 ft    (Dodging)
   9,447    550 ft    Going to die from Werewolf poison :(

   9,451    550 ft    Slain by poison.
   9,451    550 ft    Died on 15 April 2012.




  ['Score' 011090548]

[decoy]

Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that aspect of Charge/Dodging. If going this way, then you really want Flanking as that can be very nice with Charge.

I generally choose only one of Power/Finesse and Blocking/Dodging, since the pairs go together badly.

So, question for you: Blocking. It only works if you wait, not if you're just standing there hacking away? That's why I don't take blocking, because if I can't hit back then I make no progress...

I've been ending up in these ridiculous pseudo-stalemate situations a lot recently. The other day was the funniest, Dendor the 47th of his name (or whatever iteration I'm on, I don't know) was in a dead-end room (so he couldn't be flanked) holding the mouth of a hallway against Uldor, an orc captain, and their entire retinues. And I think a couple of wargs as well. Often I end up having to take parry and whip out the Defender, just to survive; that was the case here.

Statistically-speaking, I was winning and I didn't have any other choice, so I just sat there pounding away until Uldor went down, then the orc captain went down, and finally I was able to break the "logjam"...But I think it used up 50-100' of early/mid (450' or so) diving time.

I've been thinking on ways to break up the logjam and I have some ideas, we'll see how it goes.

I can see how dodge, flanking, crowd fighting, whirlwind attack, etc. could be very deadly together as he gets more experience and dives deeper, and is able to survive groups in a room rather than a hallway, but right now surviving the midlevels is what I'm working on. Prior to that it was surviving the early levels, so this is progress!

[half]

To explain the dodging, I got that when I was running from some things at 450', but it also seems to make a good combination with Charge (less chance of being hit on the way in).

Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that aspect of Charge/Dodging. If going this way, then you really want Flanking as that can be very nice with Charge.

I generally choose only one of Power/Finesse and Blocking/Dodging, since the pairs go together badly.

[HugoVirtuoso]

If you have problems getting surrounded, the 'Crowd Fighting' ability from the Evasion tree helps, sometimes. If you still cannot move out of the way, then stand against the corner of the room, because this reduces the number of surrounding monsters. This works for Orcs, as far as I know. Nevertheless, you always want to AVOID getting surrounded, whenever possible, especially Wargs and higher level Canines, and the Cat warriors.

Speaking of Naugrim characters, I have one currently in the works, at 750ft, and is doing pretty good. Check it out mine here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12873. All comments are welcome!