Egoless Dwarf Priest Winner

[TJS]

So is an ironman egoless human warrior the next challenge?

[Atarlost]

The other solution is to eliminate spoilers by randomizing -monsters-. I would do so on a per savefile basis so that knowledge can be built up between games as is traditional with roguelikes, but re-randomize when a savefile is loaded after a winner has been retired.

Even a little randomization goes a long way. Maybe every spell using monster gets a fraction of its spell list and the colored/flavored monsters are randomized. Randomize resistances on selected monsters as well.

Who knows what a Baby Fuscia Dragon or a Phlebotinum Hound breathes? Maybe in this game Rotting Qulthulgs shoot nether bolts instead of summoning undead. Hope you kept one of each elemental branding ring because who knows what Sauron's resistance hole landed on.

Randomize damage caps too within limits. Maybe nether breath maxes at 200 this game, but maybe it's 350.

There's all sorts of stuff that can be done to kill spoilers.

Some monster sets would be easy and some hard just like randart sets, but even with an easy set the game would be more exciting because spoilers woulnd't be useful, and who knows whether the set takes a sharp increase in difficulty just a little deeper into the dungeon.

As a bonus rods of probing would be good for more than dirty jokes in TAC.

[EpicMan]

Any player who is not a complete newcomer to roguelikes will be spoiled. Once you make the connection knowledge = power, you want to find and read spoilers/monster info, etc. You want to do this because you know learning the hard way is much slower, and if you've player nethack, ADOM or it's ilk you expect that you CAN'T learn everything you need to survive in a reasonable timeframe through playing, so you spoil yourself because you don't believe you can learn it on your own.

In light of this, I think (1) monster memory should be complete, at least as a non-cheat option. The knowledge makes no difference to me, since I am familiar with most monsters in Angband, and isn't a skill/technique thing, just knowledge of what can one-shot you when.

We need to assume that play will be spoiled (that's why roguelikes randomize potions, scrolls, etc) when trying to adjust game difficulty.

Secondly, making the game harder to play (i.e. poor or lacking UI) is not the same as making the game harder, and leads to frustration rather than thrills.

The third thing is that, given time players will accumulate as many consumables as they think they need to win. Increases in difficulty must not be able to be countered with more potions/scrolls/etc.

So giving Morgoth more damage/blow or more HP is not a good way to make the game harder, because it just means more potion scumming, while reducing the power of detection/ESP *might* be, since neither can be countered with consumables. It might not lead to more fun + more difficulty, but it *could* work and is worthy of testing.

[Atarlost]

One new player won quickly.

Did he have prior experience with other roguelikes?

Did he take advantage of spoilers to bypass the normal roguelike learning process?

was he just unusually lucky?

We do know he dived. Diving seems to have broken the game with far more wins even in proportion to the population since it became common. We know he was here, so he had access to all the accumulated knowledge of the game's dynamics. Past that it's just execution. Now that instadeath has been largely eliminated, as it should be as long as Angband is and as harshly as death is punished, winning is simply a matter of knowing what to fear and not making mistakes.

Punish diving somehow, or equivalently make meticulous play easier while simultaneously making the game harder in general, and the game gets closer to its historical difficulty profile.

[Timo Pietilä]

Sorry... I meant Stone to Mud.

Well, that's one tactic I have never used. No wonder I didn't recognize it. My usual tactic is to hit M into head with blunt object until he is dead. Seems to work every time

[Bostock]

Sorry... I meant Stone to Mud.

Though actually, I'm not sure I made any sense overall.

[Timo Pietilä]

I noticed in the discussion you talked about abuse of StM to get nonstop hockey sticks on Morgoth.

What is "StM"? I can't figure that out.

[Bostock]

I noticed in the discussion you talked about abuse of StM to get nonstop hockey sticks on Morgoth. I'm not experienced with V, but I've beaten Morgoth once in S, and just like in V (I checked V spoilers just now), he bores through walls. Wall-boring in S creates jagged terrain, which monsters can, and oh so often do, duck behind to escape blows and spells. If it's ever added to V (I assume it's not in since I see occasional discussions about adding terrain), it might boost Morgoth a bit.

[Psi]

I don't think that is very hard challenge to achieve with borg-like patience. After all 90% of your movements will be just that, movement. If you can cut that down you cut the turncount down. Problem is that I don't have that kind of patience.

I ran an experiment along those lines, abusing connected stairs, LoS etc for a quick run: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9787

Obviously a more skilled player would be able to go a lot faster than my 177k win - though whether anyone else would be prepared to be as unethical as I was in that game...

[Magnate]

player friendly != hard.

And yet ...

The consequence is right now the game is easier than it's been in a while, and mostly because it's become friendlier.

So I think you mean != in the literal (mathematical) sense of identity, not the traditional sense. As you yourself observe, making the game friendlier *has* made it easier - few people would argue against that.

If the question is 'is the game too easy' I'm not sure looking at bron's (or eddie's) achievements can provide the answer. You wouldn't say Ninja Gaiden for the NES is easy because some guy can speedrun it. The way to answer the question is to see how long it takes a new player to win, and whether they felt it was challenging. If a person can pick up angband and win on his 2nd or 3rd character and are bored with the game, then we have a problem on our hands. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet.

Over a year ago a new player came here to Oook and did exactly that: won in less than two months and disappeared, never to be seen again. That was what convinced me that the game really was getting easier.

It may be the case that increasing MAX_RANGE makes the game less friendly rather than simply harder. I'm not sure - I think it is worth playtesting to see. If there are lots of instadeaths, then we'll need to think again.

[Timo Pietilä]

There is plenty of scope for "challenges" as it is. For instance, I have never won in less than 500,000 (game) turns, a challenge that many others have surpassed.

I don't think that is very hard challenge to achieve with borg-like patience. After all 90% of your movements will be just that, movement. If you can cut that down you cut the turncount down. Problem is that I don't have that kind of patience.

I think that with some luck, teleport and regeneration you can cut down priest and mage turncounts very low. Especially priest portal at higher levels is very good tool to pinpoint that escaped unique again.

[bron]

As far as making the game harder: I don't really think it is particularly needed. Yes, eddie and I did this, but only after many years of play and experience. And it was really hard. I admit I'd like to see egoless added as an "official" option (e.g. in the birth options, like artifactless is now), but I'm not convinced that the basic game needs to be more difficult. There is plenty of scope for "challenges" as it is. For instance, I have never won in less than 500,000 (game) turns, a challenge that many others have surpassed.

However, if one is intent on making the game harder, my own suggestions would be:

1) No tunneling through granite (quartz, magma, and doors are ok)
This would restrict but not eliminate the effectiveness of ASC's

2) Allow monsters that summon to be able to summon into an empty space that they saw you occupy the previous turn when you are not currently in LOS.
This would reduce the effectiveness of pillar dancing.

3) Use of Runes should be restricted. Either disallow placing a rune adjacent to an existing rune, or go even further and only allow one rune at a time (placing a new rune deletes the previous one).


In my own game, I [ab]used runes, and used ASC's, but did not do pillar dancing or use LOS hacks. One partial exception to the LOS hacks: I allow myself to use "indirect" attacks, i.e. use an area effect attack into a normal visible space, but whose radius of effect will harm some monster that I can't target directly.

Conversely, I think the code that "super charges" a ring of speed should be made slightly more liberal: add one if you are playing without artifacts, and add another one if you are playing egoless.

[bron]

a priest which I'd guess is harder than with a mage

It's kinda hard to say. I'm still running my egoless mage (dlvl 75, clvl 42), so I don't have the final word yet, but I'd say that the extra hit points, the reaching 100% save much earlier, and the rBlind, make the priest character slightly more forgiving of (small) mistakes. But I think you have to play the priest slower and more conservatively due to the lack of Resistance and Haste (between levels 40 and 75), the lack of Banish and Greater Recharging (after level 75), and the fact that a priest tends to deal damage at a slower rate than a mage, giving the monsters more chances to do something bad. In particular, I would not want to try and play an egoless priest without using ASC's. On the other hand, I believe that the final fight against Morgoth is easier for the priest (if you have enough high-end consumables): e.g. I didn't have to worry about whether or not reading a [Mass]Banish scroll would drop me below 600 HP. Personally, I'd give the edge to the mage, but think one's own preferences and play-style count for more.

[fizzix]

And yet, the pendulum has started to swing back after a couple of years of helpful improvements which made the game "easier". One recent fix in the nightlies was to extend MAX_RANGE to 20 to allow targeting with x7 launchers (like Umbar). This has an interesting side effect that monsters can now breathe/cast at you as soon as they can see you/be seen. That should make the middle and late game noticeably more challenging, though nobody's complained yet. We shall see.

player friendly != hard. For example, this game is hard and user friendly:
Big waste of time...

Most of the significant changes (excepting the quiver, and paralysis changes) have been UI changes. Fail rates on spells/items shown, damage per blow calcs, item locations in the menu, attr_flicker to distinguish dangerous monsters from weaker ones, etc. None of these actually change the gameplay, but they make it more user friendly and in a way easier because you're less likely to make an error in calculation.

The consequence is right now the game is easier than it's been in a while, and mostly because it's become friendlier. There are plenty of ways to make the game harder without making it unfriendly. There are simple ones like giving Sauron Im_Acid. And there are more detailed ones like reducing the effectiveness of ESP/detection.

If the question is 'is the game too easy' I'm not sure looking at bron's (or eddie's) achievements can provide the answer. You wouldn't say Ninja Gaiden for the NES is easy because some guy can speedrun it. The way to answer the question is to see how long it takes a new player to win, and whether they felt it was challenging. If a person can pick up angband and win on his 2nd or 3rd character and are bored with the game, then we have a problem on our hands. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet.

[Magnate]

If Vanilla is going to be the main entry point for new players it should be casual gamer friendly, and that means a fairly smooth difficulty curve with a relatively gentle slope.

The people winning challenge games need to get their own variant. No game can be challenging for them without being impossible for normal people.

And yet, the pendulum has started to swing back after a couple of years of helpful improvements which made the game "easier". One recent fix in the nightlies was to extend MAX_RANGE to 20 to allow targeting with x7 launchers (like Umbar). This has an interesting side effect that monsters can now breathe/cast at you as soon as they can see you/be seen. That should make the middle and late game noticeably more challenging, though nobody's complained yet. We shall see.